• Telltale signs that we or a loved one are in a state of shame, which we often mistake for anger, depression or avoidance (4:24)
• The relationship between anxiety and shame, and how to spot the difference (10:12)
• What someone really wants when they’re in shame, even if it doesn’t seem like it (13:48)
• How to diffuse shame in the moment and practice compassion for yourself and others as a lasting antidote to shame (14:10)
• The best way to avoid having to be a bottomless pit of empathy to someone in shame (16:00)
• What to do when someone else’s shame threatens to become contagious (17:09)
• Three ways shame paradoxically tricks us into believing the worst of ourselves (18:01)
• How to see the innocent and universal wish to be loved in our loved one and in ourselves (22:44)
• How relationships can help us heal from shame (27:00)
• The most important gift we give to ourselves and our relationships when we can recognize and release ourselves from shame (30:24)

Michelle [00:00:02]

Hi, I’m Michelle Becker. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, an international compassion teacher. And you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. Together, we’ll explore how compassion changes the way you relate to yourself and others. And we’ll give you the tools to change your relationships for good. Okay. Today, we have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Christopher Gerber. Chris is a clinical psychologist and lecture on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He co-developed the Mindful Self-compassion or MSC Program with Kristen Neff in 2010, and MSC has been taught to over 100,000 people worldwide. Together, they coauthored two books on MSC the Mindful Self-compassion Workbook and Teaching the Mindful Self-compassion Program. Chris spends most of his time lecturing and leading workshops around the world on mindfulness and self-compassion. He’s also the author of The Mindful Path to Self-compassion. He co-edited two influential volumes on therapy, mindfulness and psychotherapy and wisdom and compassion in psychotherapy. And he maintains a small private practice in Arlington, Massachusetts. Chris also teaches in our Compassion for Couples program. And today we’ll be exploring the topic of shame and relationships. Welcome, Chris. Lovely to see you here.

Chris Germer [00:01:22]

Thank you, Michelle. It’s just great to be speaking with you again.

Michelle [00:01:27]

I have had the distinct pleasure of regularly hearing Chris speak about shame. It’s a topic near and dear to his heart and the subject of his next book. So, Chris, could you I’ve heard you speak about how shame has its roots in our need to belong. Could you say a little bit more about what shame is and how it relates to our need to belong?

Chris Germer [00:01:50]

Yeah. So shame. Shame is a social emotion. You know, shame. Shame means I’m imagining in my mind what you are imagining about me. And it’s probably not good. So it’s kind of seeing ourselves in the minds of others. And in particular, what we’re wanting is to be seen favorably in the minds of others. And this is really important for human beings because we are social creatures. You know, even Charles Darwin said. He didn’t really speak about survival of the fittest. He actually said that the factor that is most likely to ensure survival is cooperation. He spoke about survival of the most cooperative species. And and actually, you know, in spite of all the things that we know that human beings can do, which are kind of antisocial, we are remarkably attuned to one another. We care intensely about what other people think about us. And we work hard to be in other people’s good graces. So this is the need to belong, to be a part of the group in order to survive. And and when we think that we are not favorably considered in the minds of others, it actually feels almost as if our very survival is at stake. As indeed, at one point it really was. If we were excluded from the tribe, we didn’t last very long. So that’s the origin of shame.

Michelle [00:03:46]

Well, that makes lots of sense. We we we need to belong and we want to be seen favorably in the eyes of others so that we will be part of a cooperative relationship and and survive, maybe even thrive.

Chris Germer [00:04:01]

Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. That’s the flip side of Shane. Shame is when it’s not going well, you know, and then we get into a state of panic often. But the flip side is when things are going well, we feel safe. You know, shame feels very unsafe.

Michelle [00:04:19]

Yes. Yeah. In fact, how would we know that we or our loved one are actually in a state of shame? What? What does it feel like? How do we recognize its presence?

Chris Germer [00:04:30]

Well, that shame is an emotion among human emotions. And so there are physical components, their mental components, their behavioral components. So bodily people often feel shame as a kind of a tension in the in the chest or in the face or the throat. Some people feel it’s like getting punched in the stomach. Some people kind of go numb, almost like they have an absence of sensations such as hollowness in the chest area or a kind of sense of emptiness in the head. And also, we do kind of we have physical behaviors that can arise when we feel shame the most the most common one is kind of averting our gaze, avoiding eye contact. But but also we can, like, laugh nervously. We can blush. We can mumble. You know, We can fight our lips. We can hide or try to escape. So those are that’s kind of what happens physically. There are also a lot of emotions that accompany shame. So, for example, so shame itself, you know, shame feels there’s usually kind of a sense of confusion and not really there ness, you know, kind of absence of presence. But shame, this sense of shame can be associated with fear. Many times people feel shame primarily as fear, you know, as if. Our survival is at stake. Sometimes it’s associated with disgust. Like contempt. Like we feel somebody is. We’re contemptuous of ourselves or somebody is feels that way toward us. It can be associated with sadness, especially when shame is associated with is connected with a sense of. Powerlessness. And definitely over time, if we have repeated experiences of shame, it’s likely to lead to anxiety or depression. And then and then when shame starts coursing through the body, the mind really gets to work trying to manage the thing. And so when we talk about what are the manifestations of shame mentally, there’s usually self-criticism, you know, like, you know, you’re an idiot. What were you thinking? What’s the matter with you? We kind of blame ourselves. Know? And then, of course, there are behavioral manifestations of shame, you know. Shame can lead to all kinds of behaviors that further complicate our lives, for example. Sometimes we try to numb ourselves with alcohol or junk food or distract ourselves with television or, you know. I mean, who hasn’t binged on TV or booze or junk food when in the grip of shame? Um. Sometimes we try to distract ourselves by risky behaviors like reckless driving or random sexual encounters. Some people, their main way of showing shame is just to disappear for a few days or just check out emotionally. And then in terms of relationships, Michelle, there are the defiant types who. Who? The way you know, they’re feeling shame, even though they may not show it, is that they just argue relentlessly, you know, needing to be right about some trivial matter as if it were a matter of life and death. Mm hmm. Some people, when they feel ashamed, they bully others. And really, it can often, you know, at the root of domestic violence or even armed conflict between nations, there’s often shame. So shame actually has a way of hiding behind a ton of things. You know, if somebody is angry all the time and you wonder, why is this person mad so much? Why is this person so angry? Look for the shame. You know, that’s what we don’t see that often makes these behaviors and emotions linger so long and it’s it’s hard to see shame.

Michelle [00:08:54]

Yeah. I’ve heard you talk before about shame as a sticky emotion. You know, when when, when emotions get sticky, where we’re in grief or we’re in anger or whatever, and it’s just not resolving that often. There’s some shame underneath that primary feeling.

Chris Germer [00:09:09]

Yeah, that can be the case. As, as I mentioned with anger or say if somebody is grieving in a way. That. Really? Seems on this? I don’t know. It’s hard to say this about grief, you know, because people really come by their grief, honestly. But when when grief lasts a long time, often there’s a kind of self attack involved, you know? Like shame, Shame. That is different than guilt. Guilt means I did something wrong. Same means I am wrong. It’s a there’s a self attack. So any time we attack ourselves. And the related emotion kind of gets sticky. So if if we’re grieving and we attack ourselves, we say it’s my fault that this person died or I was a bad person while they were alive or with me, that that self attack makes grief last a long time. It makes anger last long time. And also anxiety, you know, often chronic anxiety like is is has underlying shame. And in my own case, I suffered from public speaking anxiety for a really long time. But it’s because I couldn’t at the time address the shame. You know, public speaking anxiety is not really an anxiety disorder. It’s a shame disorder. So look for the shame. If you have sticky emotions or confusing behaviors, why is this person behaving like this? It’s really eye opener. You know, it’s almost like The Wizard of Oz peeling back the curtain like, Oh, there you are!

Michelle [00:10:50]

Just so. So are you saying that if if our loved one is chronically angry with us, for example, or hostile or disappears, you know, unexpectedly for, you know, days at a time, that underlying their behavior, that their behavior might really have nothing to do with us or how much they care about us, but really more to do with themselves and their own feeling of being worthy or not being worthy of of being in a relationship? Is that part of what you’re saying?

Chris Germer [00:11:26]

Yeah. Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s really quite a wonderful skill or capacity in a couple’s relationship to to be able to identify shame in ourselves and in others. Yeah. It’s just people’s behavior becomes so transparent. And understandable when we can see that somebody is feeling bad about themself at that moment. And they’re behaving in these curious ways because they’re hurting.

Michelle [00:12:04]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it frees us up to think about them and maybe how best to respond. Which is an interesting thing because, you know, we’re talking about some different behaviors people use. One of them is you talked about the sort of anger that comes or hostility that comes, criticism that comes even domestic violence to go farther on the spectrum. And on the other end of the spectrum, this sort of disappearing or withdrawing, you know, how would we best relate to a loved one if we can identify of this, maybe shame underneath this behavior? What what could we do with that?

Chris Germer [00:12:44]

Yeah. Well, it kind of depends what you want to do with it, you know, because. Because if if the shame is draped in anger, you really need to get safe. You know, you don’t necessarily want to turn toward the person if they’re angry. And if the person is kind of depressed and feeling ashamed, you know, it might be too much to enter into what it is that they’re shamed about, or sometimes, frankly, even naming the word shame makes somebody feel even more ashamed. So there’s there’s no simple way of of talking about this. But I think a general rule of thumb is that it’s a we’re where we’re definitely ahead of the game. If we can see that shame is there and then be really wise about how to approach it. One thing to think about is that when somebody is in shame, they really, really want reassurance. That they’re a good person and they frankly want reassurance from their most intimate people, the people that know them the best. So even if even if it doesn’t appear to be the right time to go deeper and touch what the problem is beneath it. It’s really helpful to first shore up the person’s sense of self by providing some statement or evidence of our steadfastness, our presence, our goodwill, our appreciation and our support. And then then often the shame can subside a little. And. And then and then people can begin to look at it. I guess one way of thinking about this, Michelle, is that since time immemorial, the antidote to shame has been compassion. You know, compassion means to understand what a person’s going through and also to care about them and know this empathy plus love, you know. So if we can express some compassion in a way that can be received, it goes really far for alleviating shame. I should add to that, because I know your program Compassion for Couples so well and I do love it, is that a good part of the program is also self-compassion and absolutely. Ultimately, the way to work with shame is. As you know, it’s an inside job to work with our own shame and the compassion that we so desperately need from others. We actually can start we can actually give to ourselves in the form of self-compassion, but often. Before a person can develop self-compassion, they actually need to feel compassion for others. In fact, I guess what I’m trying to say is that sometimes the best way to teach self-compassion is to be compassionate, you know? So in a couple, you know, one person doesn’t really want to be on the hook for the rest of their life to provide endless reassurance and support and all this. You know, that’s it’s a lot to ask of anybody in a relationship. What we really want to do is for a person to be able to nourish and take care of themselves in some way. And one of the best ways to get to that in the couples relationships and couples relationship is to be compassionate. In a way that feels safe and reasonable and fair. Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:16:44]

Absolutely. And also, that tends to our own needs. So self-compassion and compassion for our loved one. Hmm.

Chris Germer [00:16:54]

It means self-compassion when our loved one is suffering from shame, though.

Michelle [00:16:59]

Yes, yes, yes.

Chris Germer [00:17:00]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because it really hurts. You know, it hurts us if a partner is engulfed in shame because, you know, as we were talking about before, we’re social animals and, you know, emotions are sort of contagious. We can feel what others feel. And if somebody is feeling the most difficult emotion on the planet, which happens to be shame and we’re with them, we’re going to feel it and it’s not going to feel good. So, yeah, you’re really that’s that’s a really good point, Michelle, that we need to, as partners, be able to hold that empathic pain or at least be aware of it and empathic shame, and to work with it with our own self compassion, compassion skills. That’s a really important point.

Michelle [00:17:48]

And that could give us the steadfastness to stay present, you know, knowing that we can meet our own needs in that way.

Chris Germer [00:17:56]

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I love the reciprocity that you’re describing. Yeah.

Michelle [00:18:02]

Well, it’s a you know, I it reminds me actually of the what you speak of when you talk about the three paradoxes of shame. It reminds me of kind of the second paradox you speak of, But could you say more about all three of the paradoxes?

Chris Germer [00:18:15]

Yeah. So shame is a fearsome emotion. It’s the most difficult human emotion because it kind of hollows us out. You know, when we self attack, we just kind of. You know, in a small way, we kind of dissociate sometimes in a big way. So. So shame is a really tough emotion to get near. However, it’s not such a difficult emotion to get near if we understand it more deeply and in particular. What is shame look like through the eyes of compassion? You know, because usually when we think about shame, we think about intense suffering and sometimes violence and self-injury and awful things. But when you look at it through the eyes of self-compassion, as in other words, look behind the veil, it’s it’s not so scary. And those are the three paradoxes. The first paradox is that shame feels very blameworthy, like. Hmm. I’m bad, you know, And. But it’s actually an innocent emotion. It’s innocent. You know, to wrap one’s head around the idea that it’s innocent is amazing. And I could say more about that in a moment. But the second paradox is that shame feels very isolating. In fact, that’s a key hallmark of shame is we feel very alone. But it’s actually a universal emotion. You know, as we were saying this, a shame is really kept the tribe together and allowed us as humans to survive. Without shame. You know, social structures wouldn’t have wouldn’t last very long. So it’s a universal emotion. We all feel it. But curiously, when we feel it, we feel desperately alone. So that’s a paradox. And the third paradox is that when we’re in the midst of shame, in the grip of shame, it appears it feels permanent, like I’ve always felt like this. And also all encompassing. In other words, this is like, all of who I am. It’s. It feels total, but. Mm hmm. But just like any emotion, it’s temporary. It’s. It’s. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. And it also only represents a burden that even that just a part of us has. In other words. Nobody is always feeling the emotion of shame. People feel all human emotions, and one of those is shame. So those are the three paradoxes but the most. And when we can remember this, when we in the midst of shame, when we can remember, it’s an innocent emotion. It’s a it’s. Universal emotion and that it’s temporary. That’s actually a relief. But the main thing to remember is that it’s innocent for a particular reason, and that is it’s innocent because it arises from the wish to be loved. That’s an amazing insight. What if we in the midst of shame can see that we would not be feeling like this? If we didn’t, like all human beings wish to be loved just about all the time. In other words, if we didn’t wish to be loved, we would not feel shame. But because we do it because it’s part of our DNA, because we’re social animals. This is percolating in our lives all the time, and it makes us vulnerable to shame. But the the really cool thing, Michelle is that what allows shame to get a grip on us is forgetting that we wish to be loved. In other words, we get so caught up in, Oh, I need to look smart and I need to look strong and I need to look, you know, this way or that. And I you know, basically I need people. Our hunger to be liked by people gets intensified. When we forget that kind of humble, primordial state that we were born with, which is that I just want to be loved. I just want to be loved. And and so when we look at a partner who’s in the midst of shame. It’s not the the magic. It’s not just seeing that our partner is feeling shame. In other words, not just anger or not just anxiety, but shame. Seeing the shame is one thing, but by going even further and seeing. The wish to be loved that is pulsating in that person’s body in the moment of shame really dismantles it. And but most amazingly, when we can see that in our selves, it dismantles it. It’s a lot easier to see in a loved one that they want to be loved, and therefore it comes naturally to give reassurance. But it’s not so easy to see in ourselves in a moment of shame that we just want to be loved. But when we do. Shame loses its grip. And then the most natural thing in the world is indeed self-compassion. In other words, to be kind to ourselves. So in my view, this insight that all living beings and but let’s think particularly about humans. Just about all the time. Wish to be loved as we did at the moment of birth. You know, if there were so we couldn’t do much when we were born. But when we could get somebody to love us, we got everything So right from the moment of birth through our entire lives, we’re basically saying, Love me. Love me in order to be happy, in order to survive of me. But if we feel like, Oh, I’m not being loved, then we get shame. And life starts to crumble around us. But if we remember. All beings just like me since birth and even now, just wish to be loved. Things get much clearer and some people think, Oh, this is going to make us really vulnerable. But actually it’s not what’s going to happen. It makes us strong. It makes us land on solid ground and to see things as they are. Yeah.

Michelle [00:25:03]

And I think that’s a really important piece that you’re also talking about, not just that we can see our need to belong, but that we understand it as a universal human condition, that we’re not alone in longing to be loved, but that that is just part of being a human being normal for us. Not something has gone wrong because we wish to be loved. But we buy by virtue of being in this human condition. We need to be loved and to belong.

Chris Germer [00:25:35]

And I think we’ve forgotten this, Michelle because all of us have been wounded in relationship. You know, every one of us has loved people, you know, starting with our parents in ways that they probably could not love us back because we’re all conditioned human beings. So we’ve actually thought, oh, this isn’t working. I can’t I can’t want love from everybody I meet. Because if I throw myself open like this, I’m going to be hurt. And it’s true. So it’s actually not a bad idea to forget it, but we forget it at our peril. Mm hmm. So it is possible as an adult to be fully functional and really clear and to see in oneself. Another’s. The wish to be loved, in other words, to reclaim what we once knew. And when we do that, shame loses its grip.

Michelle [00:26:25]

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I really love the way that you speak about it and how it it has its roots and the need to belong. And also you were saying something about the the people who can most help us with shame are the people who are closest to. And I wonder if there’s a the flipside of that is that that we can go into a shame spiral when we’re with people when we’re with our loved ones in ways that perhaps we don’t do with people that are not as quite as important to us.

Chris Germer [00:26:58]

Oh, wow. That’s a big subject. Yeah. Yeah, well, so we all come into relationships with a set of expectations. In other words, this makes me lovable. This makes me unlovable. When I do this, I’m going to be rejected. When I do this, I’m going to be accepted. And, you know, when people are in reasonably happy relationships, what they have is epiphanies. In other words, an epiphany means, Oh, I thought that made me unlovable. But it’s it’s okay. Yes. I thought, for example, that if I was really tentative about asking you something. Uh, that I was being a wimp. But you could see that I just didn’t want to impose or hurt you. Hmm. You know? Yeah. In other words, sometimes other people don’t react as we expect. I.e., we. We do not get confirmation for those things that we do or say that seem shameful. And then the heart just rests because we say, Oh, this person accepts me better than anyone, or certainly better than I have been accepted. It’s a corrective, emotional experience. These are epiphanies. These are the kinds of things that really glue people together for a life because we feel forgiven, you know, for things that even though they may never have been wrong, ever, we feel have been, you know, somehow emblematic of how we’re fundamentally damaged, you know? Yeah. So couples, couples can really offer, frankly. A more unconditional love, less conditional love than we experienced, or different conditions that can open us to the possibility that actually we can learn to love ourselves unconditionally. And when we do that, it goes much easier in relationships. We’re not constantly kind of hiding like. Squirrels from being from our flaws being revealed because we feel love from the inside.

Michelle [00:29:18]

Yeah. And, you know, I think what you’re really pointing to is that when you have a relationship that’s based in compassion, where you can trust that the other person will see when you’re having a hard time and care about you, you know that it really does create this secure base, the solid foundation from which you can take risks and go out into the world and fail at things and still feel okay about yourself because somebody loves you.

Chris Germer [00:29:47]

Yeah. The amazing thing, I mean, there are so many amazing things about shame and shame really, you know, hides in plain sight. And when we kind of have it on our radar, our life becomes much more. I mean, behavior, human behavior becomes much more understandable. But one of the amazing things is, is the hundreds of ways that we invisibly hide in relationship because of the simple expectation of what is acceptable and not acceptable, which means that the person who actually keeps us in a box. The one kind of the you might say, the guard at the prison of the prison that. We are living in, i.e. not fully ourselves is shame. In other words, I expect that if I show this that I will not be loved. Mm hmm. And so when we can see shame and connect with the wish to be loved, see that it’s universal, basically discover, you know, behind The Wizard of Oz, this curtain, what this thing is all about, we can be more fully ourselves in relationship. And that is such a gift. Gift to ourselves. Gift to others. So I think basically we’ve been invisibly hiding from one another in untold ways that we are simply not aware of, which begin to reveal themselves when we understand shame and open the door to being more fully oneself and more fully engaged in the relationship.

Michelle [00:31:33]

Yeah, I would agree with you. And also I think self-compassion is a good first way to. To work with shame. You know, we can be more fully ourselves in relationship with others in terms of letting people know really, truly see us. If we if we know that we can fall back on our own self-compassion. If there’s a compassionate part of our self that loves us, even though we’re not perfect.

Chris Germer [00:32:00]

It’s so important because even though we really rely on our intimate people for reassurance, they can’t give it all the time. They won’t give it all the time to. Does that mean we just hide away or we never take risks, we never risk failure? So what you’re saying is, yeah, if we have the resource of self-compassion, even if we are rejected as we will be in life, we don’t have to, you know, climb back in our hole and stay there. Stay there for the rest of our lives. We can be more resilient. Right.

Michelle [00:32:32]

Right. We can risk connection.

Chris Germer [00:32:33]

Again. Or risk. Yeah. Risk connection again. Try again. Maybe in a different way, right? Yeah, absolutely. So important. Yeah.

Michelle [00:32:43]

Absolutely. Well, Chris, you know, I could talk with you about shame and relationships forever.

Chris Germer [00:32:49]

I can talk with you about I like to be able to speak with you, but also to to touch together upon these topics, which are really quite profound for relationships. You know.

Michelle [00:33:04]

They really are. And so intertwined, you know, we don’t live in a vacuum, you know. So, yeah. So lovely to be with you. I just want to really say a heartfelt thank you for for being with us today. Was such a delight to explore this topic with you. And I want to let people know that they can find out more about your offerings and schedule at your website which is Chris Germer GERMER dot com. And if they want more information on self-compassion, particularly the Mindful Self-compassion program, a good place to get that is Center for MSC dot org. So anyway thank you Chris really a delight to be with you.

Chris Germer [00:33:43]

Thank you so much, Michelle Know, it’s wonderful always to speak with you.

Michelle [00:33:49]

So that’s all today. For today’s Well Connected Relationships podcast. Thanks for being here. I’ve got so much more in store for you. In our next episode, I’ll be delving into how strength and vulnerability lead to increased resilience for ourselves and our relationships. So be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing. And remember to join our free, well connected community on our web site at Wise compassion dot com. That’s how you’ll get updates about new podcast episodes and exclusive content like monthly compassion building tips that will support you in cultivating a well connected relationship to yourself and others.