• The obvious and not so obvious layers of acceptance. (1:57)

• How practicing acceptance in our relationships does not mean being a robot with no opinion of our own. (2:28)

• The deeper meaning of acceptance that invites us to better understand how people are diverse and different. (3:26)

• How acceptance sparks curiosity and diminishes the “toxic certainty” that occurs when we feel a little too sure of what’s going on with someone else. (4:09)

• Tim tells the powerful story of when bestselling author Steven Covey (mis)judged a dad and his unruly, misbehaved kids in the subway. (7:35)

• The big question Tim asks himself whenever he finds himself being too judgmental. (10:31)

• How the choice to engage with others in a way that allows for curiosity and possibility can change the dynamic of a relationship. (10:12)

• What it feels like in the body to be in a place of judgement vs. acceptance and compassion. (11:04)

• How the Zen teaching “study your suffering” shows us our human reactivity doesn’t have to be a problem to solve. Rather, is information we can use. (11:38)

• How accepting ourselves with our strengths and all our rough edges supports us in our relationships. (12:38)

• How becoming aware of the other person’s struggle is such a powerful opportunity to connect, but can also lead to us wanting to rush in and fix them. (13:44)

• Where acceptance fits in when we find something someone does insulting or difficult. (17:12)

• How acceptance and resistance fits in with some of the harms happening in our society these days. (18:44) 

• How when harm is “in the room” practicing fierce compassion is more appropriate than practicing the softer, more accepting side. (21:46)

• Why “ouch” is such important feedback in our relationships. (23:32)

• How to accept a person but still set a firm limit on behavior we’re not okay with. (24:27)

• How our own patterns interfere with us being able to show up in a really true and authentic way in our relationships. (26:13)

• Brene Brown’s vulnerability paradox, which is “I feel safer when you’re vulnerable with me and when I’m not vulnerable with you.” (29:40)

• How vulnerability is the heart of intimacy that allows us to be really seen and accepted by people. (30:04)

• When the people we’re in relationship with know we will accept them, it’s easier for them to be closer to us. (31:42)

• What Michelle’s story about the two porcupines has to teach us about acceptance and vulnerability. (31:54)

• How important it is for humanity and for our world that we keep working toward acceptance, openness, curiosity and vulnerability. (35:09)

Michelle [00:00:00]

Hi everyone I’m Michelle Becker and you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. In today’s episode, we’ll be talking with Tim Burnett about the role acceptance plays in our relationships. Tim Burnett is the executive director and founder of mindfulness Northwest a mindfulness Center in Washington state which offers the benefits of mindfulness and compassion practices to the greater Pacific Northwest. 

Tim has been practicing meditation since 1986 and brings a background in traditional dharma practice to his mindfulness work. You ordained as a Soto Zen priest in 2000 and began formal training as an instructor of mindfulness in 2009 working both with the Center for Mindfulness at the University of Massachusetts and with Dr. David Gurney of the Veterans Administration Hospital in Seattle. Tim is also a certified Mindful Self Compassion teacher and a certified Compassion Cultivation Training teacher and it has been my great pleasure to teach with Tim. A wise and warm teacher, Tim often writes blogs for the mindfulness Northwest newsletter. It was one of his recent blogs on the role of acceptance that inspired me to invite him to join us today. Welcome Tim. Thanks for joining us.

Tim [00:01:53]

Oh it’s wonderful to be here Michelle and I really appreciate the podcast. I’ve heard so far.

Michelle [00:01:59]

They’ve been really a joy to do as well as it is today also a joy to just talk with you about some of these common subjects of interest. So to get us going, would you mind saying a little bit about what is acceptance anyway?

Tim [00:02:17]

Well I think like everything there’s sort of a couple layers there and we need multiple layers to understand who we are and what’s going on. The obvious layer is just getting a lot better at being less reactive to things that come our way. In our classes we like the really simple John Cabot Zinn definition of mindfulness as paying attention in the present moment on purpose and non-judgmentally, and it’s always interesting to kind of kind of unpack what you mean by this non-judgmental. Does that mean we don’t have any opinions anymore. We try and become sort of acceptance robots and we don’t think he means is through practice. We get more tuned in to what’s happening in each moment and we know those little bits of bristling there’s a little bit of resistance a little bits of not acceptance I don’t want this to be happening this isn’t what I want and we learn to let it in a little more fully and say okay what’s happening is happening, what’s happening is happening. Now what should I do about it? So it kind of lowers that internal temperature and helps us be using up all our resources resisting reality because it’s reality. And at the same time trying to employ deploy our resources more wisely. So that’s a kind of come one level is just noticing how darn reactive the mind can be. 

And practice really helped me to see that more and myself and this helped people I’ve worked with and that we can shift that conversation a little bit internally be a little less a little more OK even though it’s not.

Michelle [00:03:53]

Yes I love that a little less reactive and a little more OK. This is the reality of the situation.

Tim [00:04:01]

Right. And on a deeper level I think acceptance ties into wisdom. So I was really pleased that you picked that title for your venture, of wise compassion. That acceptance also points towards a sort of deeper understanding of how people are really wired and organized and how we’re different and diverse. And my idea of how things should go could be really different from your idea and how conditioned we are by our society and our culture. It’s like acceptance also brings forward that wonderful quality that we always talk in class and I’m sure you do too of curiosity like what’s really going on here. You know? I have my opinions about who this person is and I’ve opinions about who I am. But those really complete. Are they really accurate. There’s more to this story than I’m thinking. 

So I think acceptance also is the quality of sort of broadening the frame of curiosity and wondering and noticing when we feel a little too sure know what’s going on which is often tied in for me if not I’m not accepting like the happening. And we’ve had many. Every American has especially gotten to work with us to this last little while you know watching the political scene like so much has that quality are everywhere you are on those many conversations. So when you get acceptance also is this level of wisdom. I’m wondering and just even you can go as deep as you want with the darn thing you know that everybody’s perceiving a world through their minds and minds are different so therefore the worlds we’re in are not exactly the same world anyway. You know we could go on philosophy and we probably shouldn’t from time to time.

Michelle [00:05:46]

Well one of the things I love about what you’re saying is if I’m understanding what you’re saying. Well the first layer of it or level of it is sort of accepting the reality of the situation. And then there’s the second layer which says well maybe my reality isn’t reality. this sort of can I meet with curiosity. Can I open to that. let go of toxic certainty as I like to call it and really and really open to you know maybe there are factors I’m not aware of right now.

Tim [00:06:20]

Right. I love that phrase.

Michelle [00:06:23]

And that kind of deepened in our wisdom right. We learn more when we allow our minds and hearts to stay open.

Tim [00:06:31]

Right. And I think every one of us has experienced so many examples where we made all kinds of assumptions and presumptions especially in relationship which I know is one of your big areas of interest only to find out there is something else going on for that person. You know I had no idea and not knowing we don’t know leads me to go for my own framework and project onto others. Sometimes I feel like we think that everyone else is just another version of me in a different shape but we’re not. You know we all arrived each situation in such different conditions with different things behind us. So I think acceptance really points to not just like oh I gotta accept everything OK but like a kind of a broader more spacious more curious open kind of wonderment as we enter into things you know when we can we’re also human so we’re going to screw it up but…

Michelle [00:07:26]

But that’s maybe that’s actually the point. The point is that because we’re human and we’re going to screw it up could we allow that grace that spaciousness not just for ourselves but also for people were in relationship with you know? They’re screwing it up maybe that’s a sign they’re human not a sign that they don’t like me or whatever it might be you know.

Tim [00:07:49]

Right right. And how easily we assume something negative right.

Michelle [00:07:55]

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Lovely. I don’t know. you mentioned this interplay of reactivity and acceptance in relationships. Just curious do you have a story about that you’d like to share with us, anything come to mind?

Tim [00:08:14]

Well a second-hand story is in mind, so I’ll start there and maybe it will make me think of a first person story. I was just sharing with a group of students last night a little piece that I ran into by Stephen Covey. He’s the seven highly effective things guy. he tells a story of going into the subway in New York and the subway it’s early morning or something, the subway is peaceful and calm. Just cruising along doing his thing. And a man enters the subway with two just out of control kids and they’re yelling and they’re running around and they’re grabbing and stuff and the man himself the father he believes just sits down sort of shuts down and closes his eyes doesn’t deal with the kids. And so Stephen Covey talks about just gritting his teeth and trying to put it up with this, trying to accept this annoyance and these crazy kids and this dad not doing his job. And finally he musters his courage and tries to be kind and says to the man, “could you take a little more care for your kids please. You know they’re disrupting the subway.” And the man kind of startled comes back to himself and says to Stephen Covey, “Oh yeah you’re right I probably should. We just came from the hospital. Their mother just died. I guess they don’t know what to do either. I don’t know what to do. 

the power of the story stuck with me after I shared it and I thought, some people are just holding such big burdens you know and here we are. And then then Stephen Covey and I’ve had this experience and I’m sure you have too just felt this big shift in his feeling — instant shift from judgmental, from reactive, from wanting things to be different from the way they are which is kind of a textbook definition of not accepting right wanting things to be different. I wanted these kids to be different, wanted this parent to be different. To total acceptance and compassion and love, and sat down with the man and tried to support him. So it’s amazing to really think about whenever I feel judgmental, what’s going on, you know? What’s  behind this. I don’t know? And sometimes I can catch myself being judgmental and wonder that, and other times I need to go through a little arc of discovery but… 

I think the other thing that moved me about that story is that choice to engage that Stephen Covey in that story did. Maybe from a bit judgmental place but he chose to engage and I think that’s also interesting for us as people are trying to practice relationship. You know how can I engage and find out what’s going on here even if I’m starting from a less than perfect place and I learn something you know I mean there’s something really valuable.

Michelle [00:11:03]

Yeah he’s engaged — He engaged in a way even though maybe it was rooted in some judgment to begin with, he engaged in a way— that allowed for possibility right? He was open to something new right. wasn’t stuck on that original position. He allowed himself to be to be moved and shifted by what he learned when the man spoke? Very moving story Tim, really moving story. I can feel it. And one of the things I feel as I listen to you tell it, is this difference in my body. what it what it’s like to be in a place of judgment versus what it’s like to be in a place of curiosity and what it’s like to be in a place of compassion and acceptance. Yeah.

Tim [00:11:49]

Yeah for me that embodiment has this kind of simple vertical quality to it. If I’m in judgment my forehead’s tight, my cheeks are kind of sticking out, I’m gritting my teeth a little bit. I’m up in my head. Now, when I’m in acceptance I’m in my belly just kind of. And then I can be somewhere in between and you know kind of tight chest and oooh,kind of halfway there. And you know I also practice in the Zen tradition which has sort of some stark practice reminders and, one that comes to me about this as we say in Zen, ‘study your suffering’ which sounds really negative but it’s actually pointing to what you’re saying like, actually notice when there is constriction, when there’s tightness, when there’s suffering in me. And let that not be a problem to solve, but information. Now what am I reacting to, what am I tight about here? Can I let that go? Can I drop into that soft belly?

Michelle [00:12:42]

I really love this piece about “Let that not be a problem to solve but information”. so often we sort of beat up on ourselves about I shouldn’t be this way like you know I shouldn’t be tight, or I shouldn’t be resisting or I shouldn’t be judgmental. And how different it is when we can just accept that this is happening right now and this is part of being a human being, and, use it as information.

Tim [00:13:11]

Yeah. And I think that the first area of acceptance in a relationship is relationship with myself right. With our selves. Can I accept who I am with my, with my strengths and with my foibles and with my problems? And you know that we’re really holding all the ends of that spectrum of humanness that we all are. You know, we’re so complicated! Sometimes I’m amazed that any of us manage to get up in the morning kind of venture out into the world you know?

Michelle [00:13:41]

Yeah yeah yeah. Can I accept who I am. And then there’s another piece of that for me which is that, when we can do that when we can accept ourselves as we are not just our strengths but our rough edges you know, then it’s a little easier to see, oh other people have rough edges too. And maybe when they’re caught in their reactivity or some other unskillful behavior, maybe it’s because they’re having a hard time there’s some struggle or some suffering underneath that. All right. Yeah yeah. Which maybe makes it all go ahead.

Tim [00:14:20]

Well no I’m just a little what popped in mind there was also that dimension that I’ve, what’s been hard for me to learn, is that if I’m becoming aware of the other person’s struggle is such a powerful opportunity to tune into to connect. But then it’s also not my job to fix their problem. I think the wrong quality of rushing in and trying to solve everything and cleaning up the mess and doing that. And that doesn’t really serve people either. So I think our acceptance, kind of needs to include this quality of actually letting people have difficulty, letting them have suffering, and letting them grow in their own way. There’s sort of respectfulness to that and I feel like that’s one of my areas of slow study over decades, you know? Can I be in a relationship and whether it’s a friend relationship, romantic relationship, or the relationships I have as a leader and a teacher, can I let the person own their own problems you know? So that’s really an interesting. It’s been hard for me to not sweep in and cause trouble.

Michelle [00:15:28]

Well yeah I love that you’re saying this. And really that’s another layer of acceptance isn’t it. Know cause sweeping in is a resistance, it’s trying to change things, but can I actually accept them as they are? Can I let them be where they are? Right? Without my needing to to try to change them or to fix them or… to and in relationships trying to change each other is really pretty common.

Tim [00:15:57]

Yeah pretty much. We like the person pretty well but we’d like that little thing or that big thing to change and we have a plan!

Michelle [00:16:07]

Yes I see. I’ve definitely seen that before. So the question arises for me what about when that other person is doing something harmful? And of course there are different differing degrees of harm right? Yeah. What would you say about that. You know there’s a there’s a range that maybe they’re doing something that we find annoying but it actually isn’t harmful to us right. And then there are things that are actually harmful. How do you work with that?

Tim [00:16:36]

I think we’ve all been thinking about that a lot as over these last years with so many stark episodes of violence right which is that one end of the spectrum you’re talking about keeps coming to me and it’s I’m working on this I think. Is that people do what makes sense to them. I do it makes sense to me, people do what makes sense to them. And so somehow there’s a quality in that person doing something that I find abhorrent or terrible or violent or whatever it is. That they’re acting out of some need, some choice that feels right to them. And so I have some curiosity there about can I find some kind of bridge to how they got there and sometimes quite frankly I just can’t find that bridge. But. There’s a piece there of accepting that here’s another human being doing their best even if they’re doing some it looks really awful to me. And at the same time you know the you know my my first commitment is to safety. So if there’s anything I can do to help increase safety and reduce danger for myself and others that’s my obligation. But it’s so tricky since often these things are happening a little more at a distance 

But yeah, closer to home I guess you know when people do something that that I find insulting or difficult First I try to really feel it in my body and my emotions and I’ve also been very good over the years at repressing difficult emotions. So I’ve realized that that creates a lot of blindness in me and I can’t really connect if I’m too busy taking the anger that I’m feeling and stuffing it in a box. So I think part of this process for me of meeting somebody is behaving what looks like bad behavior to me is to actually feel my feelings, so that I have a place to stand that’s more real and not just in my head. And then I’ve tried to get better at saying ouch. You know just say ouch! clearly and simply as I can begin without trying to fix them. Here’s another opportunity we try to fix people you know you shouldn’t do that you know. To give them that, that and then information that that hurt me.

Michelle [00:18:49]

Yeah.

Tim [00:18:49]

Yeah can see how … my Buddhist teacher has always told me you know Tim you really can’t straighten anybody out. And I always think well, maybe we can straighten them out a little bit. But is probably literally true. there, what he says you can’t straighten people out. People are on their own journey but it’s a gift to them actually. I can feel what I’m feeling and express something with clarity and they get a little feedback what they do with that is up to them not me though. Boy.

Michelle [00:19:23]

Absolutely absolutely. I’m thinking too about you know some of the social injustices that are happening. You know and how does acceptance or resistance. You know we often call movements for change a resistance, Right? So how does that, how does acceptance, resistance. How does that all fit in with some of the t harms that are happening in our society these days?

Tim [00:19:55]

Yeah such an important topic and has been for so long. Well I feel like there is an education and understanding piece that I’m trying to live into. A little not as much as I’d like, to understand the deep historic roots of that stuff that you know as a privileged person, and I tick all the boxes as a I have a whole list sometimes I’ll say to groups. I’m well aware of my privilege as a white heterosexual cis gendered male middle class person. There’s a long list there. You know that I’m so privileged and I haven’t had to endure directly the evils of racism or sexism particularly, and all the other isms. So I’ve been trying to educate myself about the deep historic roots so I can least have a sense of the scope. And it’s heart breaking right, it’s so heartbreaking. And I worry about my understanding, really be genuine and helpful to others. You know when a person of color has known this firsthand for generations I want to be a little careful as I just read this really cool book by Toshi Coates it’s where I learned all this cool stuff. Wow. Did you know there was racism? Yeah, Tim… some education at the end and it’s all in trying to support causes that you know I’ve tried to be more generous in 2020, supporting causes that I feel are on this side of the good. Best I can. But it’s so big you know it’s so overwhelming. 

And I have been interested to notice when I’ve had the privilege of doing mindfulness training with people and other communities, but just bringing it up and naming it seems to really be helpful. So I feel like at least I can do that. It’s not… I feel like… I feel often inadequate in the face of the hugeness of that. But at least I can bring it up and name it, and recognize that room and that I know that I’m blind to it and that. And sometimes I just really try to sense Joyce? and I’m really sorry. I’m sorry that my forebears did what they did. You know? I know that I’m on the receiving end of generations of privilege and get to do what I do, partly because of that, you know, that it’s not just my gumption that got me to where I am. So there’s a humility piece there too, I think in meeting right isms and accepting that they’re here for me to be humble.

Michelle [00:25:24]

This side of wanting to both — of acknowledging our own privilege and also of curiosity that’s part of what you’re talking about acceptance of people curiosity. I don’t know your experience. I want to know your experience. Let’s open it up in the room when we’re talking to each other. But there’s also this other side of it that I’m curious about which is what we talk about sometimes as fierce compassion. Right. So there’s a sort of a softer side of the understanding and the being with right. Making space for, but also this this other side, this fierce side of saying, no to harm. You know you said earlier which I appreciated, that when there’s harm in the room your first priority is safety. So Could you just say a little bit about how that fits for you?

Tim [00:26:32]

Yeah. That’s an important topic and I feel like it’s a growing edge for me. I have an example of verbal racism like the other day. I had a heating contractor out and he got a text while he was talking to me and I was trying to show what I needed from one of his installers and his installer was having trouble getting into a property that was on the local Indian Reservation near where I live. And then the guy said bye. “…And we always have all this trouble on the rez with those people.” And it was so shocking to hear out loud racism and I could feel this opportunity to say something and let it slip by. That really stuck with me as a moment of learning like, there was a little opportunity that passed by. And just setting my intention to do a little better next time and in the end it was also one of the factors in choosing a heating contractor. I choose the different contractor from this person who had expressed something that felt racist to me but I didn’t give him that feedback. So he didn’t find that out. It’s so tricky I’m so conditioned to be polite and not cause trouble and listen to people you know?

Michelle [00:27:50]

Yeah. Yeah. Well and I appreciate that you’re looking at this other side of how do we stand up and say no to harm. And it makes me think of earlier in our conversation when you were saying I can’t fix people what I can tell them, ouch! And that’s important when I do that. That’s important feedback for them right? And maybe they’ll make use of it or maybe they won’t make use of it. But I can say the ouch, right? So I think maybe there’s some, something in there, some similarity between just being able to name out loud that harm is being done.

Tim [00:28:25]

I wished I’d been able to just use a simple “I” statement of my feelings with that heating contractor and say, “well I feel uncomfortable when you speak that way about the Native Americans on the reservation.”.

Michelle [00:28:36]

Yeah.

Tim [00:28:37]

I didn’t pull it off at that time and I hope I will next time.

Michelle [00:28:41]

Yeah Yeah well life is always gonna give us more opportunities isn’t it, don’t ya think?

Tim [00:28:46]

Yeah yeah yeah.

Michelle [00:28:49]

Yeah it it kind of takes me into this piece of how do we accept the person without accepting their behavior? You know? to set a firm limit on the behavior while still accepting the person?

Tim [00:29:23]

Well you and I are both parents and certainly I think what we try to do is appreciate our wonderful kids at all ages and give them some clear feedback about what behavior is not okay with us. So but at the same time we don’t have the same relationship with other people than we do with our children. So yeah I think it’s an important thing to keep for all of us to keep studying and investigating. And maybe it comes back to that idea of saying ouch! you know? Giving that clear feedback that what you just did, said didn’t land for me; it was hard for me to see that, it was hard for me to hear that. And.

Michelle [00:30:04]

Yeah and it isn’t OK with me if it happens again.

Tim [00:30:08]

Yeah yeah. And set some boundaries around relationship. We’re not going to be able to get along with everybody in the universe. It’s been hard for me to accept that piece. I really am deeply conditioned and attached to one to be liked. I want everyone to appreciate me and praise me. And it’s interesting the contortions that my conditioned self will go to to try to make that happen. And sometimes that gets into territory that’s a little less authentic and a little less honest for me. So I think there is a way that I’m agreeing with what you’re suggesting very strongly because I can see the ways I try to avoid that. You know out of fear, out of discomfort, of conditioning. It’s a tricky field for me.

Michelle [00:30:51]

Right and so this is the mindful awareness piece right. Can we see ourselves? Can we see our conditioning? Can we see our own patterns and habits and behaviors and how they interfere with being able to show up in a really true real authentic way in our relationships? You know I love what you’re saying.

Tim [00:31:15]

Yeah that’s right. I could noticing my suffering and I’m noticing that although I have this head idea that I’m being likable  there is something tight in my gut here. There’s something tight in my chest. You know there’s some part of me that’s pushing or manipulating or avoiding something. So can I tend into that. Well enough. So I’m so grateful to have discovered meditation practice early on and somehow been able to keep at it because I think that’s really helped me to have the spaciousness to notice that, at least a little bit more.

Michelle [00:31:47]

Yeah. And then to accept it. Right. As best we can to say OK this is part of being a human. Everybody gets caught in some place or another. And this is where I’m getting caught in this moment.

Tim [00:31:59]

Exactly. Exactly. Now we’re back to humility too, like, I’m doing my best. I’m a human and every day is a new day right. Every day is a new opportunity for learning and growth and in that we learn some things on our own and we learn so much in relationship with others and in relationship with ourselves too.

Michelle [00:32:22]

Yeah. And there’s a um, there’s a willingness I think or capacity to be vulnerable when we can accept our challenges or as you’re talking about the different strategies to be OK, It’s like if we, if we can accept ourselves as we are, if  I can accept myself as I am, which means I’m not going to be perfect all the time or really ever. Then, maybe I can be a little more vulnerable if I’m not laying that expectation on myself right.

Tim [00:33:04]

Absolutely. And you know I’ve been so moved by what I’ve learned over the years about vulnerability. And I kind of tuned into some of the early Brené Brown stuff when she first came out and I know that you started with Brené Brown and the powerful point was made over and over again for decades now, that if we’re vulnerable we’re opening ourselves to more fully to our humanness. And the way she talks you can’t selectively numb the emotions you dislike, without ending up numbing joy, and numbing connection, and numbing love, so that there is… that vulnerability isn’t the sort of task or something that you have to do or something. It’s it’s an opportunity and it’s a possibility and it’s an opening. So I’ve really been so appreciative of getting that little by little through my thick skull that I can be vulnerable. I’m happier and then happiness includes sadness and includes hard days and includes lots but it allows me to be open to joy and love and connection. 

So you know vulnerability and acceptance I think you’re right. They’re really just. Close friends. You know when either one of those is not working, we’re closed, we are unavailable to ourselves and others. And we may look pretty functional I’m pretty good at functioning. I’m sure you are too but I’m not really there you know.

Michelle [00:34:25]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know you’re bringing up Brené Brown and, one of her concepts I love is the vulnerability paradox. She says I feel more comfortable safer whatever it is when you’re vulnerable with me and when I’m not vulnerable with you. But, relationships don’t really work that way. Right? she’s saying, , we want our partners to be vulnerable with us. Right? And actually vulnerability is the, is the heart of intimacy. if we don’t allow ourselves to be really truly deeply seen by another person how could we ever feel loved by them? They don’t know who we are. We’ve kept it a secret,?

Tim [00:35:08]

Yeah exactly. I’ve been impressed with that in personal relationships and in class groups too, in the way if one person is willing to be vulnerable you can feel the whole room just relax and open, and shoulders drop and faces soften. It’s such a gift when we’re vulnerable for others and it’s  hard to remember that when we’re on the verge or I’m one of those decision points should I reveal a little more should shouldn’t be the more vulnerable edge or should I play it safe? It’s hard to remember that you may not just be serving yourself you may be serving the others that you’re currently in relationship to by being vulnerable right now.

Michelle [00:35:47]

Right. And I think one of the ways we we serve, is that it increases safety for others to be vulnerable, right? Which brings me, loops me right back around to acceptance. You know people have more confidence that we’ll accept them when they see that we’re also vulnerable.

Tim [00:36:06]

And so being honest about our mistakes and foibles is a way to increase safety and allow connection and it’s so interesting. Like the work in mindful self compassion around shame. This idea that humans are wired, so deeply wired to want connection and have so many ways that we end up blocking connection. And that’s another one of those paradoxes that we all get to live and grow through.

Michelle [00:36:32]

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there’s another piece of this which is that for the people we’re in relationships with, our partners, our children, or whatever, that when we — when they know we will accept them then it’s safer to be close to us. You know one of the things I often talk about when I teach — I saw this cartoon Oh, decades ago and it’s these two porcupines side by side. And one porcupine has its quills laying down and the other porcupine has its quills sticking out and the one with its quills sticking out is saying to the other one, “Why don’t you ever want to cuddle anymore?” which I find to be hilarious! Well maybe because you’ve got your quills out. I’m gonna get poked if I get close, you know? So there’s something as you’ve been talking about so beautifully throughout this podcast, you’ve been talking about working with our own stuff, working with our own reactivity, not getting caught in it, and accepting it. That’s a way to move, out of reactivity, into responsiveness to  lay our quills down. It’s a little safer for people to get close to us.

Tim [00:37:46]

Right. And the other piece in there is training and awareness. So because sometimes we think our quills are down when they’re actually up, right?

Michelle [00:37:55]

Yeah, can you say more about that, I love what you’re saying.

Tim [00:37:58]

You know that sometimes I’m in, I notice I can be in a sort of determined sort of pushing forward. Usually for me it’s when I’m sort of task oriented, I’m pushing forward and I think I’m available and open to people and I just happen to have an agenda right now and I’m actually pretty closed, even though I think I’m a nice guy and I’m open. And I’ve had people many times, I’m thinking of the examples at the dharma center where I also teach, that I really had to train myself before I entered the room to remember, you know what, there’s human beings in there that are interested in connecting with me. And if I’m focused on getting this poster on the bulletin board, or fixing the router, or whatever and I just blow right by them they will be prickled. You know I didn’t use that language then but they will feel ???? from me. And that was easier for me to see that at the dharma center and then I started seeing that at home you know. That my wife or my partner, or my kids if I’m for me I’m each of us has our style. I think for me it’s a sort of productivity task — oriented style or I’m focused on my task and I think I said HI, you know? I wasn’t available I wasn’t. You’re on my way, actually right now and maybe I’ll treat you like human later. Oh.

Michelle [00:39:21]

Yeah.

Tim [00:39:22]

And it doesn’t serve me. I get a few more things done maybe but I end up pretty lonely in old age. if I keep it up like that!

Michelle [00:39:30]

Right. But in the end at the end of your days you’re not going to be so happy as happy with the things you got done as you are with the relationships that you invested in.

Tim [00:39:39]

In yeah, some of those tasks I’m determined to do are not even my tasks to do so.

Michelle [00:39:46]

Well there’s that. Yeah absolutely.

Tim [00:39:49]

I think that you know it’s a learning style when are the situations where we think we’re vulnerable and open in some fashion but actually, yeah the, the spines are out. You know we’re not really.

Michelle [00:40:01]

Exactly yes 

Michelle [00:40:09]

Tim is there anything else you’d like to say on the topic?

Tim [00:40:19]

Well I think that it’s also useful to tune into the bigger picture. How are we going to go forward as communities and as a society if we don’t keep working on this, we don’t keep training in acceptance, openness, vulnerability, curiosity, all these wonderful things we’ve been talking about? And then it’s hard to do. You know it’s hard to do! Our conditioning and our habits and our view are very solid, you know? I think it’s been so distressing in these last years seeing the national conversation so locked in such tight ways and, I can’t help but thinking that acceptance and all these connected ideas really has an important role to play there. And we’re all a part of that, you know so not to just think that’s somewhere else. We’re all a part of it. So I have a bit of a world peace agenda here too, I think. And I think we should, you know Little by little as best we can. This isn’t just for our own personal well-being, or for our friends; it’s really for all of us, you know? We’re all in so many contacts with so many people, in so many ways more than we can quite imagine. I think. And to bring a little more acceptance a little more openness, a little more love to all those interactions. You know? 

I feel like that’s what we need to do!

Michelle [00:41:36]

Wow that’s just so beautifully said. I’m with you 100 percent.

Tim [00:41:42]

I know you are Michelle. Such a great… great way to get to connect and be vulnerable with you this afternoon.

Michelle [00:41:48]

It is. It is! Thank you so much for being with us. Really, really really a pleasure to talk with you as always. You know we have this nice way of connecting don’t we? Well thank you for being with us today Tim. It’s been a pleasure to talk with you. If you’d like to know more about the programs offered by mindfulness Northwest, please visit their Web site at mindfulness northwest. Dot com. There are a lot of resources there including Tim’s recent newsletter entitled meeting a challenging moment. Tim is pleased to offer multi-day retreats in the style of modern mindfulness which include background retreats in the Buddhist roots of this work. That’s all for today’s well connected relationships podcast. Thanks for being here. If you’d like to get our notes on the highlights of this episode along with a simple practice to cultivate acceptance in relationships, be sure to join our well-connected relationships community on the wise compassion Web site. I’ve got so much more in store for you so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.