• Julie’s relatable personal story of how she moved from being a self-professed stressed out “trainwreck” mom of three young children with ADHD and caregiver to aging parents, to a beacon of resilience using the techniques she now teaches. (1:43)
  
  
• What a “happiness toolbox” is, what building one will do for you and your relationships — and ideas for what to put in yours!) (5:14)
  
  
• Self-talk that soothes: A conversation Julie often has with herself that you can also use to feel better in the midst of stress. (6:33)
  
  
• How we (and our relationships) benefit when we recognize that we’re not dependent on other people being present, kind or happy before we can feel better in the face of stress or distress. (7:29)
  
  
• Why managing stress in our relationships begins with cultivating our own ability to get out of reactivity and moving into a state of responsiveness. (8:08)
  
  
• How calming ourselves works in the amygdala and prefrontal cortex of our brains – and why that’s important. (12:12)
  
  
• Tools you can use to not be so caught in reactivity and waves of emotions, but to find a little solidness in the midst of a storm. (16:36)
  
  
• Where to start: the quickest thing you can do to calm yourself in a reactive moment and trigger a helpful release of feel-good hormones. (18:15)
  
  
• A powerful next step that works for every single thing life throws at you. (18:42)
  
  
• How to change your mood by replacing what is going on with something that brings you joy. (18:45)
  
  
• One extra step you can take to “seal in” the joy, comfort and peace you create. (20:24)
  
  
• How to apply Julie’s SNAP method with others —from minor challenges in relationships that are on solid ground to difficult relationships that cause tremendous suffering. (26:29)
  
  
•  The power and control we have (but don’t always recognize) to change up our mood no matter what is happening around us. (32:08)
  
  
• How to change your mood by opening to and accepting your emotions vs. bypassing them. (32:24)  

Michelle [00:00:05]

Hi, everyone, I’m Michelle Becker, and you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. In today’s episode, we’ll be talking with Julie podcast about how to manage stress, especially stress, in our relationships. Julie’s a mindfulness expert who’s skilled in a variety of tools and methods, including mindful self-compassion through her mindful methods for Life program offerings and her book Life Falls Apart, but you don’t have to. Mindful methods for staying calm in the midst of chaos. Julie helps others bring more peace and wellness into their lives. It was in one of those messy trainings the mindful self-compassion trainings that I met Julie full of personality. Julie has a knack for framing our struggles and solutions in simple, clear and relatable language. I’m a fan of Julie’s authenticity, and frankly, it’s always fun to talk with her. She’s currently working on her next book about how to use her snap technique to meet various life challenges, and I wanted you to hear more about what she has to offer. Welcome, Julie. Thanks for joining us.

Julie [00:01:31]

I feel so honored to be here. Thanks so much, Michelle.

Michelle [00:01:34]

Always a pleasure with you, Julie. So one of the things I love about you is how you use your own life to illustrate the power of mindfulness and compassion practices to work with the various stressors in life. Can you say a little bit about how you got into this field?

Julie [00:01:52]

Oh, that could take 25 minutes. But to give just the executive summary, I was a train wreck as a mom with three kids with ADHD and aging parents. I was the typical sandwich generation and. I wasn’t managing stress very well, so much so that the wrong words were coming out of my mouth and I went to a neurologist and said, You know, I’m saying cappuccino, cappuccino when I mean cappuccino and imaginal when I mean magical. And he did a complete battery of tests and scans and the I call it psychosocial. But the psychosocial interview and when we were all done, he said, You know, you’ve got too much stress. Yeah, your brain’s OK, but you need to learn how to calm your nervous system. And he recommended mindfulness based stress reduction, a class that, as you know, but maybe not all your listeners know, has been in existence since 1979, and it’s taught all over the world. It was created by John Kabat-Zinn, originally for pain for his patients in the Pain Clinic at University of Massachusetts, actually in Worcester outside of Boston. So in any case, I took that class at UCSD in San Diego where I live, and it was pretty good, so much so that I thought this brain science has something going for it and I started taking. Brain science classes and then eventually. Had the benefit of Michelle Becker and Steve Hickman teaching mindful self-compassion, and I truly worked my butt off on that curriculum because I knew that it was the ticket to my healing.

Michelle [00:03:51]

Oh, it’s wonderful, Julie. And then you went on from there to do some other things with Rick Hansen and yeah, taking in the good and, you know, various other trainings and certifications and developed your own programs and your own center, which is, you know, frankly, a gift.

Julie [00:04:09]

Thank you so much. I I needed to do all this to help myself. I’m not a therapist. I’m actually a recovering attorney. So it was it was figuring out what would work for somebody like me that then made me able to transmit it to other people like me because there was a lot of people like me. Common humanity.

Michelle [00:04:31]

Exactly. Exactly. Really, who isn’t? You know, I mean, exactly. We all have stressors in life. Huh. Well, that’s wonderful, I’m so glad you are in the field. Your work is really a gift. I one of the things you know is you’re talking about how you got into this. You and one of the things that is so, such a reminder of common humanity for me is you’re talking about the stress of having three young kids and parents and all of that and trying to manage it. I also had three young kids. It was a stressful time in my life. My kids are all grown now as as yours are. But in your book, you talk about needing to unhook from parenting. And I thought that was really interesting. What? What could you say a little bit about what you mean by unhook?

Julie [00:05:20]

Yeah. So you know that phrase that people bandy about, you’re only as happy as your least happy child. You’ve heard that phrase, right? Absolutely. If you have a child that struggles like I did and I still do even now that she’s an adult and you’re only as happy as he or she is and they’re struggling, you’re screwed. You’re never going to be happy. Yeah. So you actually have to figure out how to build your own happiness toolbox. Separate. Because they’re on their own life journey. Uh-Huh. And you can be loving and supportive and compassionate, but also know that you’re on a different path than thereon.

Michelle [00:06:12]

Right. Right, and we do need that toolbox ourselves. Otherwise, we don’t have anything to give to them and others.

Julie [00:06:21]

Right, right. It’s that oxygen mask thing, right? But put it on yourself first. You know, it’s everybody uses that in in teaching. But when you really honestly think about what does that mean, it’s it means a lot of loving boundaries and a lot of self-compassion for yourself. I mean, just saying, Oh my goodness, this is so tough. This is so hard. And saying to yourself, like I do, I call myself, Sweetheart, Julie, sweetheart, I love you. This is really rough. Let’s see what you need right now. What do you need to hear, what do you need to do?

Michelle [00:07:02]

Yeah. As if you had a good friend or a good husband or a good mother or somebody who could be there right at that moment and say the perfect thing? Right, right. We can learn to do that for ourselves, which is fantastic. You know.

Julie [00:07:19]

It’s actually transformative. I remember the very first time that I actually felt it in my bones that I was parenting myself. It was exquisite. What did you feel? I felt held. Yeah.

Michelle [00:07:35]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It really is life changing to discover that we can do this for ourselves, that we’re not actually dependent on other people being present or other people being kind or as you’re talking about with your kids, other people being happy.

Julie [00:07:52]

Right? It’s it’s. I I it sounds so weird, but I love myself. Yeah. And I’m not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It’s like, you know. Just showing up with an open heart and doing my best, and that’s enough.

Michelle [00:08:19]

That’s all any of us can do really, right? You know, so it has to be enough, you know? Well, there’s this other piece that I’m really interested in, because, you know, when I think when I think of unhooking in addition to the way you’re talking about it on kind of a meta level, a larger level, I think of it in in terms of getting out of reactivity and moving into a state of responsiveness, you know, get it putting a little bit of space around things, not not just going with the reaction that comes to us when we find ourselves caught in in stress. And so for my own life, I I know it’s hard to remember to do that without being able to recognize when we’re actually caught in reactivity.

Julie [00:09:13]

Well, that’s the mindfulness piece that I learned so well from you, my dear.

Michelle [00:09:19]

That we’re still working it right.

Julie [00:09:21]

Everybody all the time. I mean, your life is your practice. My life is my practice. So you need to recognize that you’re suffering to be able to react with kindness and love to yourself. So I can feel a wave of anxiety coming up or sadness coming up or, you know, dread the coming up or whatever it is. I literally can feel that constriction. I can place my good hands on my worthy body where I find it soothing, which for me is my heart’s area, my upper chest, sometimes one hand, sometimes two hands. But I’ve had a lot of students that it’s their belly and sometimes it’s cradling their face or just hugging their arms or hand in hand. But one of those soothing touch places just to start the cascade of calming emotions like oxytocin and endorphins. And then it’s that naming piece, Michel, that you just said to create some more space, a bigger container to say, Oh, that’s actually coming up or through me. It isn’t who I am. I’m not anger. I feel angry right now. And it’s and it’s good to come through me. If I don’t attached to it and spin out on some crazy story line, it will pass.

Michelle [00:10:49]

Exactly. But it starts with this. It starts with this piece of recognizing, Oh, I am stressed right now that some sort of distress I’m caught in some sort of, you know, anger has taken over me. I’m not anger, but it’s it’s I’m flooded with it now or sadness or fear or whatever. It might be, right? And I love the way you were just talking about it because what I was going to ask you is how do you suggest people recognize when they’re caught in reactivity? And you did such a beautiful job of describing that because you named these emotions that you know, recognizing, Oh, I’m scared or I’m sad or I’m angry or whatever it is. And then you also begin to get to talk about recognizing what it feels like in the body when we have these varying emotions, right?

Julie [00:11:38]

Because we’re an embodied creature. You know, I used to I think I think I used to be more in my head. And at some point in the last 10, 12 years, I became more integrated with my body and it’s easier for me now than it used to be to recognize in my body where this stuff is going on so that I can attend to it in my body, which is connected to my brain. But even if I was not embodied, I knew back then in like 2010-2011 that. That I wanted my prefrontal cortex to come on line, so I needed that pause from the reactivity of the amygdala, the flare up of whatever it was, I needed that pause to get the prefrontal cortex to come online to make a more skillful choice. And that pause naming the emotion helps create that pause. It just slows the whole thing down.

Michelle [00:12:45]

It does. And just for our listeners, because not everybody may be familiar with the amygdala in the prefrontal cortex. The amygdala is the kind of primitive part of the brain. It’s in the brainstem. And whenever there’s a we perceive a threat, that part is activated and the part of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, which is a the last part of the brain to develop. Which has the capacity to think things through and to reason and to anticipate consequences. That part goes offline when the amygdala gets activated. So at Julie’s talking about is that we need to do something to remove the to comfort and soothe and remove the fear or the threat so that the amygdala quiets down and the prefrontal cortex can come back online. And that was.

Julie [00:13:33]

A gorgeous textbook explanation that was great. Now, so you know, in your in your prefrontal cortex, I always, I always I’m looking at my fist right now. It’s the Dan Siegel fist, right kind of relation that he does. Yeah.

Michelle [00:13:51]

So while other people may not love that, you might want to describe it where you tuck the thumb in.

Julie [00:13:54]

Go ahead. Yeah. So my thumb is tucked in to my fist and it’s the it’s the reactive ancient amygdala piece. And then my fingers are folded over and the front of my fingers like where your fingernail is and then one and then up to like your knuckle is. What I’m thinking about is my prefrontal cortex, and that’s where my skillful decision making by my. My skillful response instead of immediate reaction, that’s where all that can occur, and then you’re less likely to do something that you’re embarrassed about, or, God forbid, feel, you know, shame, which is stickier because you’ve paused and you’ve reacted better.

Michelle [00:14:45]

Exactly, exactly. And not to mention, we’re probably not doing harm in our relationships the way we are when we’re operating just out of reactivity.

Julie [00:14:56]

Or 100 percent, 100 percent. I love all the relationship work that you do. And for your listeners, I just have to put a plug in for Michelle’s class. I sent my son and his girlfriend as students and I bought them the tuition. And they loved your course, and it’s like the most I could do as a mom to to help them develop. The skills to have a successful communication, because that’s the name of the game for relationships.

Michelle [00:15:34]

Yeah, we’ve had a few engaged couples come through the course and it is always just a delight to have them in the course. And of course, your son and and his fiancee were no exception. They’re really lovely.

Julie [00:15:49]

I sent him to BSR. This was a couple of girlfriends ago and it was so many years ago it was in in Worcester. I figured he might as well because he went to college in Worcester. He might as well learn from where it all began. Uh-Huh. And it was a holiday gift for he and his then girlfriend, and he flunked the class and I didn’t even think you could. I didn’t. I didn’t even think that was possible that you could flunk at BSR, but I was either. But I suppose if you failed to show up because it’s snowing and you really don’t like the reason exercise that that you could, that you could flunk the class. So for your listeners, the raising exercises, it’s this basically mindfulness exercise with with mindful eating where you take this raisin and it takes a really long time. And it’s kind of annoying, but it’s a classic and you look at how like a wrinkled it is and you look at the color of it and you feel it and you smell it and you put it up to your ear and roll it between your fingers to see if you can hear something. And then you finally put it in your mouth, but you don’t chew it. And then eventually the teacher says, you can bite down and chew it, and you have this like explosion of raisin this in your mouth. Right, right? It’s this mindful eating exercise. While he thought it was like so ridiculous that he sent me the California raisin like YouTube VIDEO. Yeah, the cartoon.

Michelle [00:17:20]

Oh, that is so funny. But, you know, actually, that’s a great example of of using mindful. So in that raisin exercise, as you just described it. We’re using all the senses to become present to what is happening now in this moment. Exactly. And just as you described it, that that using all the senses to become present to what what’s happening, what’s here in this moment, whether it be something you’re eating or the waves in the ocean or whatever it might be that does create the space that they use to calm the amygdala as well. And that does create this sort of pause and this space where we can settle down and we’re not so caught in reactivity.

Julie [00:18:02]

Right. So that’s go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. So that’s one of the tools shifting your awareness from sense to sense to sense to sense is one of the tools in the toolbox. When you’re activated and you’ve already done your soothing touch and you’ve already named the emotion and then you, you need to use a tool to change the channel that is one of the good tools to change the channel.

Michelle [00:18:27]

Absolutely. So let’s back up and let’s slow down and back up a little bit because you’re you’re giving us a little bit of what the snap is, but let’s I want to just kind of invite you to to name it. So this is from your new book, which will be out later this year.

Julie [00:18:44]

That not at all.

Michelle [00:18:45]

I know I’m very happy about it. It’s called Snap Snap Snap out of chaos and into calmness. And yeah, so could you just talk a little bit about the snap process in general? You know, what are the steps? What is the what to do the snap stand for and how do you work with it?

Julie [00:19:03]

So soothing touch is the essence because you want your body to begin that helpful release of feel good hormones, oxytocin and endorphins. So you start with that first, you have to first, you have to recognize Michele that something’s up. I feel I feel crappy for some reason or nervous or anxious or whatever it is. So it’s the suit, the essence, soothing touch. The end is named the emotion, which we just discussed the A is act. So you could the penultimate mindful self-compassion question is what do I need? What do I need right now in this moment to comfort myself? So in asking that question, you pick something from your toolbox. It could be it could be shifting your awareness, looking out the window, getting getting a glass of water and drinking it mindfully. It could be calling a friend, it could be walking outside. It could be grounding yourself like feeling the bottom of your feet into the center of the planet. Like rooted, it could be using using an object like I like the here and now stones that we have in our curriculum, or Amala or a rosary where you’re. Focusing on looking and feeling what’s in your hands because it breaks the discursive loop of the worrying and the ruminating, so there’s it could be meditating, it could be listening to music, it could be exercising. Whatever it is that’s at your disposal that brings you joy will change the channel so that you feel. More calm. It doesn’t mean that what that what it doesn’t mean that your dog didn’t just die or your. Grandmother or your child isn’t in danger. All those things are still true. But you will feel more calm.

Michelle [00:21:06]

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Not so caught in just the reactivity, a wave of the emotions, but actually to find a little bit of solid ness in the midst of the storm.

Julie [00:21:17]

And then the pea is praise. And actually. Rick Hansen helped me with the Pea because I originally had it, it was too many words it was proceed with self-compassion and he’s like, What about praise? And I said, You’re a genius. So because praise for me because I’m pretty secular, is thinking by practice, thinking that universe really patting myself on the back that I’m managing. But for faith based people, they get tremendous solace from their deity. So people could be praising God or Allah or Jesus or Buddha or whatever. And then that’s just an extra like gratitude, yummy peace at the end of the snap to kind of seal it.

Michelle [00:22:14]

It kind of sounds like kindness to tell you the truth. Yeah, you could have had snack.

Julie [00:22:19]

Oh, wait a minute. I think you need a see there.

Michelle [00:22:26]

Well, OK. You know. OK, next ethnic. Anyway, yeah, those. I think those are really wonderful. That’s a wonderful process to go through, right, recognizing we’re in distress, the soothing touch piece of it. I think we could probably talk a little bit more about that because the soothing touch piece of it, we’re as human beings, we’re wired already to be comforted and soothed with by three different things. You know, one has a kind gaze. One is soothing vocalizations and the other is a kind touch. And so we are physically, physiologically wired. That touch can comfort and sue this when it’s kind. And so the cool thing that people don’t really understand. You know, people just don’t know is that we can activate that pathway, the right pathway ourselves.

Julie [00:23:21]

When I teach that and I explain to people that when the infant gets picked up and the adult says, Oh baby, and pats the infant, that those cascades of feel good emotions occur in the child’s body and in the adults body, there’s always like a wow, wow, you know, so the fact that we can do that for ourself is really genius.

Michelle [00:23:53]

Yeah, it’s fantastic that we can do that for ourselves. Yeah. So what you’re saying is it’s kind of like a way of holding ourselves with kindness, right? Exactly. And so you’re saying, OK, something happens and we recognize we’re distressed, start by holding ourselves up.

Julie [00:24:11]

Yeah, because that’s the quickest thing that you can do before you even get your brain together to name it. Mm-Hmm. You instantly can put your hands on your body and when you put your good hands on your worthy body with intention and attention and attitude. It’s going to help you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle [00:24:37]

OK, so we do this, we do start with a soothing touch and then we move into naming it. We were, I guess we could say, you’re opening to it with mindfulness. What is actually here? Oh, anger is here. Fear is fear. Sadness is here, right?

Julie [00:24:54]

It really works fantastically for grief, but I have to tell you, it works for every single thing that life throws at you. And I used to teach rain, which was popularized beautifully by Tara Brock, whom I love. I mean, I love her teaching, but I realized a couple of years in to teaching rain. While more than a couple, probably 10 years into teaching rain, that it doesn’t frontload self-compassion. And that’s what I need for me. And so when I develop snap and started teaching it, people were like, Yes, yes.

Michelle [00:25:37]

Yeah, just jumping right into that kindness. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful. So one of the things I love about the way that you teach is you give such great examples. Could you give us a few examples, especially of, you know, relational issues where snap you use Snap, you know, how did it? How do you use it? How does it show up in your life, if that makes sense?

Julie [00:26:01]

It it totally makes sense. I just have to pick among the many relationships.

Michelle [00:26:08]

Yeah, you don’t. You don’t have to tell us the person or, you know, sometimes.

Julie [00:26:13]

So we started before you started recording. We started with my tech limitations. And so sometimes what’ll happen is I’ll be trying to do something on the computer and I’ll really slow way down and I’ll have the most perseverance and I’ll be trying for 15, 20, 30 minutes and I’ll just be failing. I just can’t do it. Before I ask my husband who could do it in a minute and a half, and then he says, Why didn’t you come to me? And I’ll say, because I just I don’t want to be that person. I want to be able to do it. And then he’ll say, Honey, you just have to accept that you can’t do it, that you and tech don’t speak the same language. And sometimes. I’ll just be. It’s sometimes will get really, really frustrated because I will have screwed something up epically, you know, like saved 15 documents in the wrong place, like not on my back. Somehow they ended up somewhere else. And I’ll just I will literally be with my hand on my heart. He’s used to seeing my hand on my heart. Yeah. And I’ll just be breathing in for myself, loving myself while he is. He doesn’t berate me, but while he is like, if you just would have come to me, when you see something that looks different, don’t do it. You know what I mean? Like just those. And that’s pretty minor. So that’s just in, you know, in in the long term marriage where these things happen. And then it happens. It happens all the time in other relationships. You know, that are way more.

Michelle [00:28:07]

Well, so in that in that case, Julie, because I’m that’s a common one. Our partners get frustrated with us for something, right? Something we did or we didn’t do or whatever. Our partner gets frustrated and they feel you, we can feel their kind of irritation. So how do you snap with that? You said, OK, I’ve got my hand on my heart.

Julie [00:28:26]

So I feel compassion for myself. I’m breathing in for me and I’m breathing out for him because it must really be annoying that he and I have been having this conversation for 40 years. Yeah. I actually feel bad for him.

Michelle [00:28:48]

Yeah, well, you can see that it’s challenging on both sides. It is.

Julie [00:28:51]

Yeah, it is. It is. It totally is. And and yet I have to. Love myself for the fact that I I continually think I’m going to get better at it. Hmm. You know, I’m not going to, I’m just telling you.

Michelle [00:29:09]

But no, I appreciate that.

Julie [00:29:12]

So, you know, so that’s just in one relationship, which is kind of humorous. And then I have some relationships in my life that are really excruciatingly painful and caused tremendous suffering. And that’s where Snap. Comes in to kind of take the deep end out of the pool for me and really, really support me. Hmm.

Michelle [00:29:37]

So how might you use Snap when one of those things occurs, you don’t have to name the incident, but you know what would what would be something you would do? You know you’d start with sounds like hand on the heart for you that you’re going to place.

Julie [00:29:50]

Yeah. And sometimes it’s two hands on the heart, and sometimes I actually have a fist on my heart like my right. I’m doing it right now, so I’m going to try to explain it like my right fist on my heart and my left hand supporting it. It’s like blanketing it, like I’m just really holding myself, right? I mean, when you have somebody in your life that you love dearly, but they have mental health issues or addiction issues or both. And. You, you and they say, why won’t you help me? Why won’t you take care of me? Why won’t you support me? And it it’s heartbreaking, but you know that you’re doing the best by saying. You know, you need to be living in a sober living home or you need to be, you know, you. To to have you build a life worth living. It looks like that. It doesn’t look like a patient or a sick person in my house under my roof anymore because that didn’t work. And now we’re trying this. I mean, that’s excruciating.

Michelle [00:31:05]

It is. And sometimes what people need is not what they want. It’s not what they’re asking for. Right? Sometimes they need our strength to hold a limit, and we’re in a way that we know is probably better for them in the long run.

Julie [00:31:22]

So what they need.

Michelle [00:31:24]

Rather than what they’re asking for? Right.

Julie [00:31:25]

So intellectually, intellectually, Michel, you know, as a mom, that that’s true, but emotionally. The crushing piece of it that’s like pulverized your heart and gives you diarrhea. Is that? You. You wish it were different, you wish it were easier. You wish you could. You wish you could. Cradle this person, yeah, emotionally, but you know, intellectually that that’s not what’s going to help the person build a life worth living.

Michelle [00:32:12]

You know, I’ve always said that that’s I think I don’t know, you know, which relationship you’re talking about. But as a mom, I’ve always said that’s one of the hardest parts of being a mom when they’re little, when they’re infants. By and large, generally speaking, if they have an issue, we can, we can solve it. We can keep them safe, we can comfort and soothe. We can calm, not in all cases, but by and large. But as they grow and go out into the world more and more, we’re just not that powerful. And it’s so hard not to be able to make make things all better, especially if they’re asking us to.

Julie [00:32:49]

And knowing that if you make things all better, it’s going to make the person worse. Exactly. You know, it’s it’s going to I don’t like that. I don’t like the term enabling. There’s just something that sits poorly with me with that. But knowing that the person. Isn’t going to be OK. If they’re babied.

Michelle [00:33:12]

Well, you know, the because it keeps them dependent on somebody else. And dependency breeds resentment both in the person who’s dependent and the person who’s giving the care. So what’s not what we want? You know, it’s it’s it’s a fact of life when kids are little. But you know, when we’re talking adult to adult dependency is not where it’s at. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so we got we went a little far afield there because you ask the question.

Michelle [00:33:43]

Julie [00:33:43]

I know well, I can relate, you know, I can relate to that particularly deep, painful struggle.

Julie [00:33:50]

Yeah. Yeah, it’s you know.

Michelle [00:33:52]

I know in your book, you talk a little bit about the various things that you raise that you use Snap like, you know, looking the soothing touch, the breathing compassion in for yourself and out for the other person, as you talked about with your husband. I’m. And also then moving into something like exercise, listening to music, those are your tools on the beach. Yeah, yeah, the tools, you know?

Julie [00:34:22]

Yeah, those are your tools because I really think that. We have so much power and control that we don’t actually. Always recognize. To change the channel. Mm hmm. So you can actually change up your mood, you can stop worrying and ruminating. You literally can stop it by replacing it with something that brings you joy. Yeah, and it’s not saying it’s not there, like there’s that like spiritual bypassing thing that people say, Oh, then your Bible? No, no, no, you’re not bypassing anything. You still have the same horrible thing going on. You’re just enjoying yourself now because you’re not dwelling on it.

Michelle [00:35:07]

Yeah, I think one of the differences there is we’re talking about acknowledging it, right? You’re not denying it. You’re not trying to get over it. You first open to it, right? So you and your snap method, you’ve supported yourself with some soothing touch and then you open to it. You’ve opened mindfully, you’re naming it, Oh, what does it feel like? Oh, it’s it’s anger. It’s fear, it’s sadness. You’re noticing what that’s feeling like in your body. You’re opening to it. You’re not pushing it away, right? And then having having accepted this is how things are right now, whether I want it to be this way or I don’t want it to be this way, this is how things are white right now. It’s sort of like, Well, what’s the point, given that this is how things are? What’s the kindest thing I could do?

Julie [00:35:54]

Exactly, exactly.

Michelle [00:35:57]

Yeah. So it’s not really getting bypassing it. It’s no, it’s it’s working with it.

Julie [00:36:02]

But that is the criticism. There’s that working with and being with the right kind of. Equanimity, practice, that is life, right? That, you know, how long are you going to kind of be down at the bottom of the snake pit? Get out.

Michelle [00:36:22]

Well, I think really it’s one of the skills is knowing when to open more to it and when to close it for now. Yeah. You know, and so maybe sometimes the snap practice is going to happen really quickly and maybe sometimes it’s going to unfold over a whole day, you know, because you need to be open to it a little bit longer. You know what I mean? And there’s no I don’t think there’s a one right way. I think there’s a this is what I need in this moment. Yeah, what I need in this moment. Yeah.

Julie [00:36:54]

I think you’re right. I think with grief, sometimes in my life it it took a long time. I was in the toolbox for a day. Yeah, you know, like I would go. To the beach or, you know, do some writing or listen to a song, take a bath, you know, or luckily, when my dad died, it didn’t take away. My ability to concentrate on reading and reading novels is a really great escape for me. Sometimes when people have a loss, they lose their attention span for a while. So I’m just and you know you, you don’t know if that’s going to be you, right? But it’s really super common that that happens. When my mom died, my dad couldn’t read a book and he couldn’t even watch a movie for a long time. Yeah. So anyway, you know, I was able to just completely escape into historical fiction, and it was just such a gift. So, you know, that would be one of one of my tools basically taking days and days on end. Yeah.

Michelle [00:38:05]

Yeah. Well, and then so that’s your piece of it, and then you’ve talked about the praise piece of it. Yeah. You want to say a little bit more about that. I just think samples of ice.

Julie [00:38:17]

I really think the universe for having learned these practices. You know, I constantly fake the Center for MSC and all of the various components of that. I mean, I originally learned this from you and Steve Hickman and then the teacher training was you guys and Christa Neff and Chris Germer and then, you know. Rick, Rick Hanson just accepted me basically as a student, and I did his professional training class, and I’m just I’m constantly thinking all of you in my mind and in my heart, and I’m thinking myself that I can walk my talk. And that I can teach this stuff because I would be dead. Yeah. And I don’t mean to be melodramatic. It’s just true. I would not be here. Yeah, I hear you. I wouldn’t have stuck it out. It was too. It was too painful.

Michelle [00:39:17]

It was too painful. Yeah. And that, wow. You know, Julie, that really speaks to the power of these practices. It really does. Yup.

Julie [00:39:27]

I’m the poster child for resilience using these methods.

Michelle [00:39:32]

You are. You absolutely are. You’re just a great example and a great teacher because of that. Thank you. The truth is, we all teach this stuff because we needed to learn it at one at some point, you know? Yup. You can’t. You can’t bypass that. You can’t skip over that.

Julie [00:39:48]

Well, I think a lot of the messy, mindful self-compassion teachers that I’ve met actually are therapists, and they’re taking the training to help their clients. And I’m sure they’re also helping themselves. But I was the client for myself. I was the teacher and the client all in one.

Michelle [00:40:10]

I hear, I hear you, Julie, really, that that is the way to go through the program, you know, because you you got to do it for yourself. Yeah. And therapists, you know, why do you think therapists became therapists?

Julie [00:40:23]

Well, that’s true. They were working their own stuff out.

Michelle [00:40:27]

Hey, this stuff is helpful. Maybe I should try to help other people. So anyway, it’s been such a pleasure to talk to you. Julie, is it really? It’s always a delight, even when we’re talking about really difficult heavy stuff, right? Yeah. And I think that’s maybe part of what I love about your snap thing you’re talking about. How do we hold really difficult, painful stuff, but do it in a way that fosters some resilience that doesn’t have to take us under?

Julie [00:40:54]

Yep, yeah. There’s this um, this image of having like a really strong keel on a boat so that whatever the sea state is and it can be really uncomfortable. We sailed from San Diego to Mexico, and the first couple days the sea was a mess. I was so seasick and freezing, by the way, that I had a scopolamine patch on. So if that image really works for me because it’s like no matter what the sea state is or what weather system is coming through at your core, you can be OK.

Michelle [00:41:37]

Exactly. Exactly, that’s such a great note to end on. Let’s just stop there for now. Beautiful. Just want to thank you for being with us today, Julie. It’s been so much fun to talk to you. As always, if you’d like to know more about the program that Julie’s, the programs that Julie will let me pause for a sec, is there anything you want to say, Julie? No. OK. If you’d like to know more about the programs that Julie offers, you can find her on her web site Mindful Methods for Life dot com. And if you want to know more about her work on using mindfulness and compassion skills for managing difficulties in life. Her book Life Falls Apart, but you don’t have to mindful methods for staying calm in the midst of chaos is a great resource. That’s all for today’s well connected relationships podcast. Thanks for being here! If you’d like to get our notes on the highlights of this episode, along with a simple practice you can use when relationship problems arise. Be sure to join our well connected relationships community on the wise compassion website. I’ve got so much more in store for you, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.