• Micki’s favorite definition of equanimity, what it is and how it makes relationships better. (1:59)

• How our human nature to push away what we don’t like and grasp at what we do is also one of the greatest sources of our stress and suffering – and how moving toward equanimity changes that. (3:28)

• What you might think you don’t like about equanimity vs. what it really has to offer. (4:05)

• A mantra you can use to meet your reactivity and help you open to what is and begin to work with it. (6:20)

• What a fly on Michelle’s cheek taught her about meeting non-equanimity with equanimity – and how it made her chuckle, too. (6:40)

• The enormous things we learn about our lives, ourselves and our perceptions when we can accept and see clearly “what is.” (10:10)

• The importance of taking a longer view than our society encourages when it comes to working with our distress. (14:00)

• The story that makes Micki cry every time she tells it, about an astronaut who sees the mountains of war-torn Bosnia from space – and what it can teach us all about taking the long view. (15:03)

• The first step to seeing more clearly what’s going on underneath our reactivity and feeling more grounded and loving. (16:42)

• Three kind things to say to yourself in those difficult moments. (20:03)

• A story Micki tells about “the farmer who doesn’t know.” (21:13)

• What we must learn about our thoughts to help us suffer less. (23:16)

• A powerful practice to calm your reactivity and help you trust the unfolding of any situation. (24:32)

• How practicing equanimity for ourselves impacts the people and world around us in powerful ways. (27:28)

• How practicing equanimity can be sort of like eating a pancake. (33:19)

Michelle [00:00:02]

Hi, I’m Michelle Becker. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, an international compassion teacher. And you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. Together, we’ll explore how compassion changes the way you relate to yourself and others. And we’ll give you the tools to change your relationships for good. Hi, everyone, I’m Michelle Becker, and you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships Podcast. 

In today’s episode, we’ll be talking with Micki Fine about how to stay present and balanced in the midst of difficulties, including difficulties in relationships. Mickey Fine is the founder of Mindful Living and has been a certified mindfulness based stress reduction teacher for 24 years. She’s the author of The Need to Please Mindfulness Skills to Gain Freedom from People Pleasing and Approval Seeking. And her children’s book, May All People and Pigs Be Happy. She’s taught mindfulness and loving kindness meditation since 1994 in a variety of settings, including her private practice, research environments Rice University, M.D. Anderson and the Jung Center. I must admit I’m quite fond of Micki, and it seems many of you are too. If you haven’t already, listen, please check out our podcast with Micki on People Pleasing. You can find it on the Wise Compassion website. She was such a hit with you. I wanted to bring her back to talk about how to stay centered and grounded through the inevitable storms in life and relationships. Welcome, Micki. Thanks for joining us.

Micki [00:01:31]

I’m glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Michelle [00:01:34]

Oh, I’m so happy to have you. Always a pleasure to talk with you about these topics that you and I are both so interested in.

Micki [00:01:41]

Yeah. I’m glad to talk with you.

Michelle [00:01:43]

Yeah. So the course that you’re teaching soon and what we’ll talk a little bit more about today is about equanimity. Could you say a little bit about what equanimity means? Yeah,.

Micki [00:01:59]

Well, there are lots of definitions of equanimity. And one of my friends, Heidi Warren, who is a mindfulness teacher and she teaches at Spirit Rock with Sylvia Borstein. She sent me a document many years ago, and I had to call her to see if it was her. And she says, I think of equanimity as the quality of spacious, even mindedness that allows me to experience whatever occurs with soft, wise resilience. And I just love that.

Michelle [00:02:32]

I do, too. Soft wise resilience. Beautiful.

Micki [00:02:36]

Yeah. Yeah. And so there’s this sense of kind of an unshaken, unshakable balance of mind and rooted in insight. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:02:49]

Yeah. And that unshakable is an important piece of it, too, isn’t it?

Micki [00:02:52]

Well, I’m thinking, you know, we all get shaken.

Michelle [00:02:55]

Yeah.

Micki [00:02:56]

It just happens. And being able to practice equanimity, even when you don’t feel the equanimity there. Equanimity with no equanimity. No.

Michelle [00:03:08]

That’s great. Equanimity with non equanimity. Yeah. Can you say more about that?

Micki [00:03:13]

Well, I think that that I mean, we all suffer and we all want things to be the way we want them to be. And one of the things that is is really, really important is to know that we all push away what we don’t like and we grasp on to what we do like. And that in in research says that’s the that’s the source of stress. Mm hmm. Is quite natural. In fact, every every creature does that. You know, backs up or moves forward. Right. Right. So that’s how equanimity. That’s where equanimity is really important. And that’s where non equanimity is, is when we’re fighting.

Michelle [00:03:58]

Yeah. So can you say more about what equanimity is not.

Micki [00:04:02]

Or.

Michelle [00:04:02]

Non-equanimity, as you just said?

Micki [00:04:05]

I think equanimity gets a bad rap sometimes, and they think it’s about not caring or aloofness or, you know, just kind of acquiescing to your experience. And it really is none of that. It’s not denying what’s happening. It’s not escaping, which we all do from time to time. It’s not like resignation, like, oh, whatever. Right. It’s not aloofness. Like, I just don’t care. So. So there’s a sense of being fully engaged and fully with what is present in the moment without that denying and escaping an aloofness so that we can work with what’s right here in the moment and soften to that.

Michelle [00:04:51]

Yeah. And without the reactivity. Know, but I love what you said. You know, we can practice equanimity with our non equanimity, right? Yeah. So we can have this this sort of reactivity that comes up when we’re trying to practice equanimity. But then we can say, okay, can I can I open to that without reacting to that? That that’s a normal part of life, too. As you were saying, we’re all all creatures are wired this way.

Micki [00:05:18]

Yeah. Yeah. That’s for sure. Equanimity takes practice. Because we don’t. We aren’t that kind of creature. Naturally, I don’t think. Uh huh. And so it takes practice practice of being in the moment. So there’s this formal practice of mindfulness and the informal practice like. Stopping in the middle of it, in the middle of pleasure or pain or any kind of difficulty. And taking a breath. So that’s where equanimity could start. Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:05:53]

So stopping in the middle of it, catching that, we’re we’re moving into reactivity and just pausing.

Micki [00:05:58]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the biggest practices. And it’s it seems rather simple, but it is. You know, it’s not so simple, right? Yes. It takes it takes years and years of practice. And. And we will still react. Right. Catch ourselves. And so it becomes it can become part of our life to simply. Oh, here I am. Right. Right. Sylvia Burstein, one of my teachers says, it’s not what I wanted, but it’s what I’ve got.

Michelle [00:06:31]

Yeah.

Micki [00:06:32]

Isn’t it? Sure it is. Yeah.

Michelle [00:06:34]

Not this is the reality of things as they are.

Micki [00:06:38]

Yeah.

Michelle [00:06:39]

Exactly. You know, it’s reminding me of a time when I was sitting on retreat and I was sitting in a room. It was. It was warm out, and I was sitting in a room that had the doors open in in the midst of my community. And I showed up at the appropriate time for the meditation. And I sat on my cushion and as I closed my eyes to settle in a fly, there was a fly buzzing around and a fly landed on my cheek and I swatted it away. And then then I had this thought, Oh no, I’ve swatted it away. Like I caught my reactivity. Right? Right. And it’s, you know, it was like, shoot. And then then the bell rang to start the meditation. And I had this thought, Oh, well, like it didn’t count and started. Right. So, you know, these sort of tricks our minds play on us, right? And then I. Found that amusing as well. And, and, and then, you know, closed my eyes again. And the fly came back and the fly came back and it landed on my cheek again. And I and I again swatted it away and felt the sort of disappointment of the reactivity. And I had this wish. It came back around again and I had this wish, Oh, go bother somebody else. And I thought, no, no, no, don’t. Bother anybody else. You know, I could just. See this reactivity rising and falling. And then eventually it came back again and landed on my cheek. And this time I didn’t react. This time I was just aware there was a fly on my cheek and.

Micki [00:08:12]

Wow. Yeah.

Michelle [00:08:14]

But, you know, it took a little practice to get there, right?

Micki [00:08:16]

Of course.

Michelle [00:08:17]

And my teacher was giving. You know, we were working with the instruction. And what else is here, you know? And at the time that it landed on my cheek and I didn’t react, I was experiencing some sadness. And so I was experiencing some sadness. And I asked myself, per my teacher’s instruction, what else is here and what else is here? And I thought, Oh, the fly, the fly is here. And suddenly I had this experience of not being alone, you know, that it was actually now a positive experience having this fly on my cheek. Of course, I washed my face as soon as that meditation was over.

Micki [00:08:55]

But and in those moments, it’s like right now. It’s like this.

Michelle [00:09:01]

Exactly.

Micki [00:09:03]

What’s here right now?

Michelle [00:09:04]

Exactly what’s here right now. And a different feeling to open to it and accept it. Then to be caught in pushing it away or wishing it away or swatting it away, as the case may be.

Micki [00:09:16]

Yeah. Yeah. And and. And that takes awareness. Mm hmm. It takes. I think it takes kindness. Mm hmm. Toward ourselves. You might have. You know, in the first two times the fly has landed on your. On your cheek, you might have gotten irritated with yourself.

Michelle [00:09:35]

Yeah, I was frustrated with.

Micki [00:09:36]

Irritated for the first time. And then just you were off to the right. You might have been off to the races and not had one moment of what you wanted. Right.

Michelle [00:09:47]

Right. Right. But but there was also this piece, as you’re talking about, about meeting non equanimity with equanimity. It’s sort of like there was a little amusement after the frustration and there was a little amusement about the frustrated the reactivity and the frustration, you know?

Micki [00:10:04]

Yeah.

Michelle [00:10:04]

You’re seeing kind of the nature of things.

Micki [00:10:06]

That makes perfect sense. Yeah. So equanimity can be a sense of of being able to find some sort of neutrality with what they call those eight worldly wins. A pleasure and pain, gain and loss. Yeah. Praise and praise and blame and fame and repute and. And that those things come into our lives and we can find space with it to say right now it’s like this.

Michelle [00:10:36]

Yes.

Micki [00:10:36]

And in doing that, it’s it’s it teaches us enormous things about our lives and about ourselves and about our perceptions and perceptions have such a huge role to play in our fighting with our experience. And so the more that we practice mindfulness and we actually explore our perceptions, maybe our perceptions of ourselves. So there’s a there was a story about a woman being on retreat, and at one point during the retreat, there’s 100 people all sitting, you know, and she opens her eyes and she thinks, Oh God, look at all these people. They’re just sitting there so beautiful. And oh, I’m a horrible meditator because she had looked up and she was having a hard time and everything. And so after after the meditation, she went out and walked on the trails. And I think I know where she was because there were chipmunks there. And apparently the the story was that, you know, the the deer come and the the geese come in and they all are very quiet. They don’t move when the people walk by. And so she walks by a chipmunk and the chipmunk runs away. And she said, See, even the chipmunks hate me. Oh, I was like, Oh, that could be me. Yeah.

Michelle [00:11:57]

Yeah. I was laughing when you were saying the first part of it because I thought, Well, that’s a very common experience, right? Yeah. It’s like if everybody else is doing it better. Yeah. Anyway, so keep going.

Micki [00:12:09]

That perception of ourselves gets in the way. Yeah. Of thinking. Oh, here I am. And noticing. Perhaps here I am comparing myself to everyone. Mm hmm. And I think one of the main pieces of equanimity is to bring mercy and kindness and compassion to ourselves and love that that really has been the basis for me of of finding some kind of equanimity in life. Is that is that piece about love. And, of course, there’s the four heart qualities, you know, loving kindness. Compassion, joy and equanimity. And they all work together. And so I think loving kindness, meditation and compassion meditation are really important in helping to cultivate that balance in our lives, because so much of our stress and our difficulty comes from the way that we evaluate ourselves. Am I able to meet this challenge? And research shows that.

Michelle [00:13:11]

Yeah. And one of the things I really like about what you’re saying, if I’m hearing you correctly, is, you know, you’re not just saying, okay, in the moment when reactivity happens, here’s how to meet it. What you’re saying is deeper than that. What you’re saying is, look, it’s a process that takes a while and that the more we practice things that cultivate these for Brahma Vihar as the the kindness and compassion and joy and equanimity, the more we practice those things, the more they become a source, a way of being a trait rather than a state.

Micki [00:13:48]

Yes.

Michelle [00:13:49]

And and then that really reinforces the equanimity piece of it.

Micki [00:13:53]

Absolutely. Spot on.

Michelle [00:13:56]

Yeah. I think that’s a really, really important point. You know, we’re so in our society, in our culture, we’re so quick to want, okay, how do I fix this? How do I get the result? You know, how do I get, you know, what I want? But it isn’t. And there are things I think that we can do in the moment. And I’m going to ask you about that in a little bit. But but really taking a longer view of this thing and cultivating the conditions for kindness to arise, for compassion to arise naturally when when we find ourselves distressed. So important.

Micki [00:14:30]

Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things you just said, taking something about the long view. Yeah. Taking a long view of our practice and of all sorts of other things. It’s just so important. And it might be that we simply tell ourselves, Well, this is the way that it is now, and I can work with what I’ve got and be more balanced as I move through this. And there’s a you know, we can we can stretch the time out. Mm hmm. Or we can stretch the way that we look at it. Mm hmm. There’s a story about a man named Jerry Linenger, who was on the Mir space station. This was years and years ago. And so he’s up in the space station, and he has to go outside the space station. So he’s all suited up and attached to the the module. And he looks out at it at Earth. Mm hmm. And it was a clear sunny day in Europe. And he could literally see the mountains of Bosnia. And it was during the Bosnian War. Wow. And he’s looking at it and looking at it and in such awe. And he suddenly had this realization. If everyone could look at the world in this way, there would be no more fighting.

Michelle [00:15:47]

Yeah.

Micki [00:15:47]

It makes me cry almost every time I tell that story. And I’ve told it for years.

Michelle [00:15:52]

Yeah. Right, Exactly.

Micki [00:15:54]

Yeah. You know that sense of taking the long view? Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:15:58]

Oh, and literally the long view in this case, right?

Micki [00:16:01]

That’s right. It just. I just caught on to that one. I like that.

Michelle [00:16:06]

Beautiful. So. Okay, so part of the long view is understanding, as you were saying earlier, understanding our nature as human beings. Right. And that we do get pulled off center, we do get caught in reactivity, those kinds of things. What can we do? Like, how do we when we’re caught in one of these things, these normal human things, how do we work into equanimity? How do we move back into that centered, balanced place that is free of reactivity? That’s spacious?

Micki [00:16:40]

Yeah. A minute ago we talked about the four heart qualities are there four Brahma Viharas and that those are cultivated through mindfulness. So I think mindfulness is the first step that we cultivate. This present moment. Awareness. Mm hmm. So that we can see instead of fight. Yes. See what’s actually going on underneath perhaps the aversion and grasping and let ourselves soften to the aversion and grasping so we can learn. Yeah. And so mindfulness is is a big piece of this. And I and I also referred to loving kindness and compassion. And those things actually help us to feel more grounded, more settled, more loving. And we all know when we feel those things, we’re like, okay, it’s all right. You know, it’s just everybody has had that experience, I hope.

Michelle [00:17:36]

Well, I don’t know if everybody’s had that experience, but I would like for everybody to have that experience, you know? Yeah. That’s compassion arising. So. So you’re saying, you know, when I. What I’m. hearing is that first there’s a mindfulness piece which is recognizing that we’re caught something, and then there’s this kind of softening piece, this kindness piece that says, Oh, you’re caught, you know, that meets it with some some kindness, some compassion.

Micki [00:18:03]

Yes. So that’s I think that’s one of the main places to start. And I think sometimes it’s it’s starting really small with little things, like you might just say maybe you’re, oh, maybe a friend of yours says something that’s kind of snarky and you simply, oh, take a breath. And notice and there’s probably nothing to do about it. You know, it’s not a big deal. And so you can kind of. Oh, you can just allow that. So you start with small things first. I always, always like that idea. Mm hmm. And that you really settle into the feeling that’s underneath all of the difficulty. Hmm. And that sometimes is a little bit scary, but the source of it is what I think is what is important, so that we can actually look at the source and move from there and maybe heal from some kind of trauma or other difficulty that you’re reminded of when you when your friend says something snarky. So I think those really looking at your, you know, having that interview, I think also some kind of self-talk that might be it might keep might be combined with the acronym RAIN that you recognize, allow, investigate in. People think of what the N is differently. But I think now it’s nurture.

Michelle [00:19:37]

Well nurture. But I think originally I think that was Michelle McDonald’s work right and non identify is the other piece of it right.

Micki [00:19:45]

And now I hear it so much as as nurture. Yeah. And it’s a little easier to understand that. Yeah.

Michelle [00:19:53]

Yeah.

Micki [00:19:54]

So. So it might be that you you practice that RAIN in some way and that the part of the nurture might be saying something to yourself that’s kind of like, I don’t like this, but this is what I’ve got. This is like, right now. I can handle this. Yeah. Maybe take the long view of it. Mm hmm. Maybe noticing your own perspective of. Oh, I think she’s talking about me like, maybe I’m not. I’m the one that, you know, you make up some story about yourself. You’re blaming yourself for what’s. What’s happened. Maybe not. Right. That’s not the case.

Michelle [00:20:34]

Right.

Micki [00:20:35]

Maybe our perception of what is happening is not true. And I think that’s where a sense of not of not knowing can come come in having the don’t know mind.

Michelle [00:20:47]

Yes.

Micki [00:20:47]

Beautiful and cultivating that. And we all like to be right. Everybody’s raising their hand. Right. I like to be right, Michelle.

Michelle [00:20:57]

Of course.

Micki [00:20:58]

Absolutely. Who doesn’t? I know not to be right. And so I think. When we can actually stop and say, Is this true? Is this is this the truth of the matter? And there’s a there’s an old story about a wise old farmer, and he has a prized stallion. And one day the stallion bolts out of the corral and he runs away. And the farmer’s neighbor is there, and he says, Oh, no, this is the worst thing. Oh, I can’t. Oh, this is terrible. And the wise farmer says, don’t know. Yeah. And then some time later, the stallion comes racing back with five wild mares. And the farmer’s neighbor must be hanging around all the time. And he says, Oh, isn’t this the most wonderful thing? And the farmer says, I don’t know. Mm hmm. Then later on, after that, the farmer’s son is trying to ride one of the wild mares. He gets bucked off and his leg is broken. And of course, the neighbor says, Oh, no, isn’t this terrible? And farmer says, don’t know. Mm hmm. And after that, the military comes through the countryside, conscripting young men into service. And they don’t take him because his leg is in a cast. And the friend says, Oh, isn’t this wonderful? And the farmer says, don’t know!

Michelle [00:22:27]

Yeah.

Micki [00:22:28]

And so we really don’t know. And so we can kind of take our thoughts a little bit. Almost like almost laugh at them. I mean, not like a mean way, but like, oh, here we go again. And that we are. And one of the things that we learn in mindfulness meditation is that we’re really not our thoughts. We just float through like, like clouds in the sky. And so that not knowing can help. And there are lots of benefits to not knowing. Having a greater sense of vibrancy, not being shut down so much and thinking everything is just this way, being stuck and that it gives us a sense of wonder.

Michelle [00:23:09]

Yeah. And that we’re not suffering in that same way, you know? One of the things I love is and I didn’t create this, but other people have talked about, you know, that because I thought whatever it was, I believe it. You know, like, if I thought it, it must be true. But when we recognize thoughts as what they are, they’re simply brain secretions, then maybe we don’t have to believe everything we think. You know, every thought that arises.

Micki [00:23:39]

Absolutely.

Michelle [00:23:40]

Which I kind of like.

Micki [00:23:41]

Absolutely. It’s. It’s helped me through some things, that’s for sure.

Michelle [00:23:46]

Yeah. One of the things that you’ve been pointing to throughout this is that it’s not so much about the experiences we have. It’s more about the way in which we relate to the experiences we have that can cause us suffering or that can we can keep our stability and stay balanced, knowing that, you know, sometimes things will happen that we think are highly positive and sometimes things will happen that we think are highly negative and everything in between, but we don’t have to react to them in that way. We don’t have to attach to the positive. We don’t have to push away the negative.

Micki [00:24:20]

Yeah.

Michelle [00:24:20]

Like, like the farmer in your story.

Micki [00:24:22]

Yeah, I think that’s the essence of it. And it also once again. It takes practice there. There’s a in addition to mindfulness meditation, loving kindness, meditation, compassion, meditation, there’s an equanimity meditation. And it’s practice by repeating a series of statements to yourself. We can do it out loud. You could do it silently in your in your mind. And they are. Things are as they are. Mm hmm. And you kind of stop and take a breath. Mm hmm. I am as I am. Mm hmm. May I accept things as they are? And you might have a big no at first. Mm hmm. And then may I trust in the unfolding? Hmm. Beautiful. And so those can kind of move us in the direction of equanimity. And and you can also notice by taking that little pause between the statements and seeing where the fight is, Right?

Michelle [00:25:26]

Yeah.

Micki [00:25:27]

Yeah. I don’t accept things as they are. Right. Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:25:31]

Well, and that that word acceptance. I’m glad you said that, because that’s what was going through my mind, too, is you’re really talking about acceptance, practicing acceptance. And one of the resistances I find people have to acceptance is this idea that we’re somehow condoning it or saying it’s okay. And really, I think of acceptance not so much as saying this is I’m okay with this, really. I think of it as dropping the fight with what is.

Micki [00:25:57]

Yes, absolutely.

Michelle [00:25:59]

Because things are like this.

Micki [00:26:01]

Yes. And we don’t we we don’t have to just acquiesce. It’s not like we don’t do anything about it, but create space by taking we’re taking our judgment out of the picture, softening around, maybe softening in the body first and so on. And our own judgment, softening around all sorts of things, right? Mm hmm. So that we can take action that is useful and resourceful and hopefully effective. Right. Or it may take nothing. Right. Oh, it’s just this way. Okay.

Michelle [00:26:37]

Right. And if we are taking action, if we have if we’re coming from a place of equanimity, the action is likely to be wise and compassionate rather than reactive kind of thing, which, you know, may exacerbate our difficulties.

Micki [00:26:55]

Yeah. And I think that the I just thought of my friend Heidi’s definition, spacious even mindedness that allows me to experience whatever occurs with soft, wise resilience.

Michelle [00:27:09]

Yeah. Love that. Soft, wise resilience. That’s so beautiful.

Micki [00:27:14]

She asked me to give a give her the link to the podcast so she could hear me, know she’s going to hear her name throughout it.

Michelle [00:27:21]

Well, that’s great. You know, I mean, her wisdom is rippling outward. And that’s the thing. When we take the time, I think, to center ourselves in this way, to ground ourselves, to to find that spacious way of being in the midst of whatever is arising, we are rippling out that peacefulness.

Micki [00:27:39]

Is.

Michelle [00:27:40]

Is rippling outward toward others.

Micki [00:27:42]

Yes.

Michelle [00:27:43]

And so, you know, I think this is one of the reasons why I think it’s so important to practice equanimity in the midst of our relationships, because, wow, relationships can be the best of times and they can be the worst of times, Right? There’s a lot of suffering that happens in the context of relationships because they’re so important to us.

Micki [00:28:02]

Yes.

Michelle [00:28:03]

Do you have any tips for us in terms of practicing equanimity, you know, in the midst of a stormy relationship, you know, when some a heated moment happens with some other how can we move into that spacious presence and out of reactivity?

Micki [00:28:19]

Yeah. Well, I think the plan would be oftentimes the the difficulty comes in the conversation. Mm hmm. Or maybe what somebody does that you don’t want to do or you want them to do in a different way. Yeah. And so there’s that stopping, taking a breath. Noticing your own perception or your own reactivity and maybe a perception behind. What you think their motivation is.

Michelle [00:28:50]

Yeah.

Micki [00:28:51]

And I think almost everyone has components or features of their parents in their spouse. Mhm. And so we, we end up I think kind of thinking of the of the spouse in ways that we thought of our parents.

Michelle [00:29:09]

Hmm. Interesting.

Micki [00:29:11]

And I know for one for me is I for a long, long time would just do anything that my spouse said. Mm hmm. I don’t do that now. Mm hmm. But. And it was a really powerful thing, and I just. I got angrier and angrier and angrier. This is not with the skills I have now. Right.

Michelle [00:29:31]

Right.

Micki [00:29:32]

That was based in old stuff. Right. To see that and remind myself of who this person is. Then there’s space to move.

Michelle [00:29:43]

Yeah. Who this person is and how. And. And sort of unhooking that from your expectations of them based on your parents, your experience of your parents. Right. That kind of an uncoupling that unhooking them from that to actually see that other person more clearly.

Micki [00:30:02]

Yeah. And there’s there’s a I have a story in my head. I’m married to this wonderful man who is kind, thoughtful, etc.. Mm hmm. One day he was doing something in the kitchen and I came in and I saw him, and I thought, Oh, God, he’s just. He’s not doing it the way it should be done or something like that. He didn’t like what he was. How he was doing something.

Michelle [00:30:26]

Uh huh.

Micki [00:30:26]

And I stopped and laughed at myself. I was like, You know what? At least he’s doing it., right.

Michelle [00:30:35]

Right.

Micki [00:30:37]

Kind of is. And I’m judging him for doing some just not doing it the way that I want it to be. Right. Wanting it to be my way. You know, we all like to be right. We want it our way. Right. People want it to be our way. Of course, everyone. Right. So it may be that. Stop. Take a breath and laugh. Yeah. What? You may not want to laugh out loud, but laugh inside yourself. And here I go again. Right.

Michelle [00:31:03]

And I think we can do that. We can laugh at ourselves when we only, when we hold it in the context of it’s so normal and human to get caught in this way. And then we can laugh at ourselves if we think that there’s something wrong with us. And that’s why we’re getting caught in it. Then usually there’s more self judgment, self-criticism that comes up. But what the more we look at it, the more we see it in ourselves and others, the more we understand, “Oh, this is just the nature of being a human being.” And, you know, and then it’s a little bit lighter. Oh, I get caught in that again, like my experience with swatting the fly around. You know, if I was frustrated with myself for swatting away and then I notice the frustration and, you know, I was a little bit amused, frankly, you know. Oh. That you got caught in the you got caught in the swatting and then you got caught in the frustration. Oh, you know, and knowing that that’s human, I could soften a little bit. 

And that’s one of the words that you’ve been using throughout, which I really liked, is is that there’s a softness to it. It’s not a opening to what is. And with a sort of gripping, you know, I can manage this, right? There’s a real softness when we allow things to be as they are, even if we need to do something about them in the next breath. There’s a there’s a softening that happens.

Micki [00:32:26]

Yes. Yes. And that softness can be actually encouraged by maybe softening in the body. Mm hmm. A little bit. And softening. Maybe softening around wherever the tension or retention might be around it. And I guess first that noticing of the difficulty and noticing how you are fighting it. Yeah. And only then can you soften.

Michelle [00:32:52]

Right.

Micki [00:32:53]

And it really is one of those things of being loving with yourself. I think once again, those those practices meld together. Mm hmm.

Michelle [00:33:04]

I like that. And I like, you know, Chris Germer sometimes talks about it as as if, you know, you had sore muscles and you were slipping into a warm bath. You know, that that sort of melting that can happen. I think sometimes when we talk about softening in the body, we can we can try that in a way that’s full of striving and kind of aggression, you know, rather than softening or softening around it. When I was first learning the Mindful Self-compassion program, one of the participants in the program with me at the end of a practice said, Oh, you know, that softening thing. He said, I was thinking of it like a pancake. You know, the way you can eat the pancake around the edges. You don’t have to go right into the middle of it all at once, you know? And we all just really kind of love that, you know?

Micki [00:33:52]

Yeah. And, you know, in in my own practice, you know, in the beginning, and probably not so much now, but that sense of, “come on now. Get it right.” Mm hmm. “You don’t feel this way if you’re being mindful or, you know, and. Oh, my goodness, that’s not useful.” And so shifting to, a real loving, non striving kind of softening. I’m not doing this to make it better. I’m simply letting it be.

Michelle [00:34:23]

Absolutely. Yes. But not attaching to the outcome, but just right. Tending to the to the both the experience, how we relate to the experience and how we relate to the person who’s having the experience, you know, in other words, with some kindness and understanding the way we would to somebody else we cared about, you know?

Micki [00:34:41]

Right. Absolutely.

Michelle [00:34:43]

Yeah. So, really, you know, that self-compassion right there is part that’s part what we’re talking about, right? Noticing that we’re struggling, but then meeting it with in a certain kind of way.

Micki [00:34:55]

Yes. That absolutely. We’re reading off the same script here.

Michelle [00:35:00]

I think we are. Micki. You know, that’s that’s a common experience for me with you. I think that’s why I like hanging out with you.

Micki [00:35:08]

Yeah. Isn’t it?

Michelle [00:35:09]

Yeah, it is. It’s really fun. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about equanimity or how it unfolds in relationships or why it’s important or anything at all?

Micki [00:35:20]

I was going to say that it’s Impermanence is a scary thing to people. We want things to be fixed. And impermanence kind of conjures up fear and denial and avoidance. And and it’s our natural tendency often to turn away from things. And so being able to soften around things, not being permanent. Okay. This is how it is now. It’s going to change in a moment. And I think all the practices that we’ve talked about teach us that. Cool. There was one thought, and then the next moment or minute, it’s off to the races with something else. And so we learn to be more comfortable with impermanence.

Michelle [00:36:05]

Yeah. You know, I think it’s interesting, Micki, because I agree and and don’t with you both. Because I think the thing is that when things are going well, we want things to be fixed.

Micki [00:36:17]

Though.

Michelle [00:36:19]

But when we’re suffering in some way, we sure as heck want them to change course.

Micki [00:36:24]

Yeah. Right.

Michelle [00:36:25]

So there’s. But but I think you’re saying, you know, the overall nature of humans is we want things to be predictable and therefore we like them.

Micki [00:36:33]

Yeah, that’s to be predictable. That’s what it. That’s what it is, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle [00:36:38]

And so then, you know, we want them to be fixed in that they were, they’re predictable. But yeah. And then it’s. And it’s a little scary when things are unpredictable.

Micki [00:36:48]

Right? Sure it is. Yeah. Yeah. Think about always cope and stuff, you know? But you answer when we’re when we’re going to be free of this and going to have to have masks on or if we’re going to, you know, all sorts of things.

Michelle [00:37:00]

Yeah. Do we need masks? Do we not need masks? Can we be inside? Can we not be inside? Do we need a booster? Do we need a booster? Right. Yeah. It’s a there’s a lot of energy that goes into trying to figure things out. And I think that’s your point about wanting things to be, you know, predictable or fixed in that kind of way, if you just knew the right thing to do. Of course most people would do it.

Micki [00:37:20]

Yeah. Yeah. Or some of the other things that are, I think are important is supporting your own wellbeing by getting rest, eating, exercise. I mean, all of the things that you think of that when you have them, you feel less reactive, more, more often than not if you have a good rest. You have a nice breakfast. You feel much better than if you had a horrible dream and you didn’t sleep well and you have to run out of the house to go to work without any breakfast. Your little grumpier if it’s a second way. So supporting your own well, your own well-being is is important. And I think also creating an intention to how do you want to be or act during any situation. It’s not a goal. It’s a an intention for the moment and this moment and this moment. This moment.

Michelle [00:38:18]

Right. It’s rooted in what’s meaningful to us, right?

Micki [00:38:21]

Yes.

Michelle [00:38:21]

So kind of keeping in, you know, your if I could say those two things a little bit differently. But in the similar vein, I think I think you’re talking about that we have to we have to tend to the fact that we have a body and we have to care for the physical body that sets us up for equanimity or for reactivity, right? Yeah. So that’s one of the pieces. And the other thing is this, that we have this sort of I don’t know if spiritual nature would be exactly it, but spirit maybe, you know, like what is important to us, what is meaningful for us, and can we set an intention to stay in line with what makes sense to us in the world? Super important. I’m so glad you added those things.

Micki [00:39:05]

Yeah, with pleasure talking with you, Michelle. And I hope that the people who listen to the podcast benefit way.

Michelle [00:39:12]

Oh, thank you, Micki. It’s been such a pleasure to be with you, too. Thank you for being with us today. And for our listeners, if you’d like to know more about the programs Micki offers, you can find her on her website, Living Mindfully dot org. If today’s topic resonated with you, you can learn more about equanimity from Micki in her upcoming course. Equanimity greeting the moment wholeheartedly. It starts May 5th, and you can find the information on her website Living Mindfully dot org. That’s all for today’s Well Connected Relationships podcast. Thanks for being here. If you’d like to get our notes on the highlights of this episode, along with the simple practice you can use to stay centered and grounded in the midst of stormy relationships, be sure to join our well connected relationships community on the Wise Compassion website. I’ve got so much more in store for you, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.