• How Dawn and Michael took the Compassion for Couples program as a rare opportunity to focus on them as a couple – and what changed for them as a result. (3:46)
  
  
• What creating “shared phrases” for your relationship does to unify you as a team. (6:03)
  
  
• The intention Dawn and Michael set as a couple that’s based on their shared value of kindness – and how identifying your shared values can deepen your connection with your partner. (6:51)
  
  
• How all of us bring patterns from our family of origin into our relationships that might not serve us now – and what to do instead. (11:52)
  
  
• How Dawn and Michael navigate their default patterns of needing to be in charge vs. needing to be independent – and you can, too. (12:51)
  
  
• How asking for what you need is more welcome and powerful than you might think. (13:04)
  
  
• The challenge of accepting help when it is offered – and the important difference between doing it with gratitude vs. acquiescence. (15:02)
  
  
• The danger of trying to fix the conditions that make life uncomfortable for our partner – and what to do instead. (18:17)
  
  
• What we have to feel from our partner before we can listen to their advice on how to fix a problem. (19:20)
  
  
• What it means when Dawn and Michael say they have “different mental maps” – and what to do if you and your partner do too. (20:06)
  
  
• How couples tend to think they have to have “sameness” to have connection – and what works a whole lot better. (23:28)
  
  
• Michelle’s analogy of a fire that reveals the ideal balance of space and connectedness for a relationship to “keep the fire going.” (23:50)
  
  
• How to see if something you’re doing will feel kind to your partner (or not!) (36:05)
  
  
• How making a vow about how you would like to live doesn’t necessarily mean having to do things that are hard or complex – it can be simple. (39:46)
  
  
• Why this podcast made Dawn’s cheeks so sore. (45:22)

00:02.90

Michelle

Hi everyone I’m Michelle Becker and you’re listening to the well-connected relationships podcast in today’s episode we will be talking with my friends and colleagues Dawn MacDonald and Michael McIntyre about what happens when we practice compassion in our relationships dawn is the co-founder of the mindfulness and well-being consultancy with her husband Mike McIntyre. Dawn recently retired from over 30 years experience in healthcare and human services. From frontline service in acute mental health adolescent trauma and psychosocial oncology to the c-suite in ethics and spiritual care Dawn has developed sustainable organizational strategies as well as accompanied individual practitioners in their journeys toward mindfulness compassion resilience and equanimity. She holds certification both as a trainer and a teacher of mindful self-compassion mindfulness-based stress reduction and her passion for compassion led her to study and teach Stanford University’s Compassion cultivation training. She’s a senior instructor with the institute for mindful leadership and sits as a member of the international mindfulness integrity network. And the global mindfulness collect and the global mindfulness collaborative. She’s nurtured by a large blended family of now six adult children along with their loving partners 4 amazing grandchildren her furry friend miss fluffy coat, big paws also known as June and most of all is deeply grateful for the company of her anamkara Michael.

Michael is a highly accomplished award-winning professor researcher and administrator Dr Michael McIntyre excuse me Dr. Michael McIntyre dean emeritus at the University of Winnipeg served as the research program leader with the compassion project at St Boniface Hospital Research Center. His impressive legacy of research includes more than 40 refereed journal articles and 55 conference presentations and informal publications. He’s also served and as an affiliated scientist program leader of the functional neuro-imaging program at the national research council of Canada. He has supervised doctoral and post-doctoral students in psychology neuropsychology neurophysiology linguistics radiology and physics a trained teacher of mindful self-compassion and mindfulness-based stress reduction and compassion for couples. His teachings are infused with the warmth and power of stories. Personally familiar with the burdens of chronic illness, he can’t imagine a definition of health that doesn’t include being able to be kind to oneself. Proud papa to 4 beautiful grandchildren and dad to 6 adult children and their partners together with Dawn, they share their lives with their loving rescue dog June. Welcome Dawn and Michael I am really delighted to have you with us today.

03:59.22

Dawn

You know Michelle what an honor to be with you.

04:04.29

Mike

It’s our pleasure. Michelle.

04:07.10

Michelle

Well I’m really excited to talk with you both today. Both from the standpoint of each of you being experts in the field of compassion which is always a pleasure for me and also from the standpoint of your lived experience bringing compassion into your relationship. For our listeners Dawn MacDonald and Michael McIntyre, both really accomplished teachers in their own right and researchers in their own right took the Compassion For Couples program as a couple so really exciting for me to talk with you a little bit and really listen to you a little bit and hear about how that was for you. What did you learn? What do you have to share with us about bringing compassion into your into your relationship?

04:57.79

Dawn

So the opening of the compassion for couples and I know Michelle you and I have had this conversation but it was so powerful to discover my own limitations in this course and to discover just how much love there is in our relationship and how we can bring all these practices that we’ve been offering the world into our relationship to strengthen and nurture us through good times and challenging moments.

05:46.11

Mike

I concur with dawn about the power of bringing compassion and mindfulness practices into our lives. One of the most amazing experiences was developing phrases as a couple that pertain to our own life. We had led finding phrases exercises numerous times, but it never quite hit in the same way and I think that it taught us that the perspective of focusing on ourselves as a couple gave us a breadth of wisdom that we hadn’t had before.

06:50.67

Michelle

Yeah that’s really, that’s really interesting when you say focusing on ourselves as a couple can you say a little bit more about that? You know I know the two of you and I know you have taken care of your relationship in the past. What was it about the phrases that really helped you focus on your relationship as a couple?

07:18.14

Mike

Well I’ll give you an example of one of our phrases and it was -I don’t know whether you remember this Michelle, “May you experience the safety of kindness”. That’s not a phrase that I would have used in reference to myself. Um, but to an appreciable extent the safety in a relationship involves the capacity for mutual kindness and when Dawn and I were individually, then together forming our phrases, it hit: “this is a good phrase for us”. What we try to accomplish in being kind to one another and experiencing the other’s kindness is to create a safe familial space and of course safe individual spaces reside in that. Say familiar space. But it’s different. It’s more expansive and that’s in essence what I meant by the scope of the phrase.

08:44.84

Michelle

That phrase just really hits me in the heart too because it’s so it’s so true. It’s so foundational. You know that Kindness is what makes our relationship safe if we think we’re going to be met with something other than kindness. We don’t feel safe and we don’t want to fully enter the relationship. So really, kindness creates the safety and makes the relationship possible. So yeah, just really powerful. Thank you for sharing that Mike!

09:15.20

Mike

You’re welcome.

09:21.79

Dawn

I think I just want to add a little bit to this because there’s a shared responsibility in that that feels really powerful. It’s instead of you know, Mike having to make things safe or Dawn having to make things safe, it’s this unified contribution that you know maybe one or the other of us carries the load a little bit more heavily on a particular day if the other person has been struggling but it extends not just in our relationship but I love how Mike named it in our familial space like so for our family too that we want people to come into our home to come into our lives and also experience that that kindness that creates safety for them to just allow themselves to be vulnerable. All the things that we really value in our mutuality.

10:27.29

Michelle

Absolutely, and there’s a piece of it Dawn that you’re talking about which for me is like being on the same Team. You know when you’re when you’re creating these phrases when you’re sharing these phrases you’re on the same team. Together. This is the joint Project. I don’t know if it’s a project or it’s really just more of a deep value and a way of being but together like this is what we as a couple stand for and then I also love how you’re really talking about how it it ripples out.

10:45.36

Dawn

Really it ripples out into other aspects of your life and other people in your life.Thank you, I don’t know how many times I can say thank you to you for co-creating this this wonderful package of you know six weeks journeying together as a couple and you know Mike and I have raised 6 children and so it’s rare that we gave ourselves time to just be us. We were often you know, giving to the community, giving to our workplaces, giving to our children, giving to their relationships all that. But this small journey to honor who we are has really created a glide path for us to continue to honor the relationship and I love that you said you know it’s a team effort because, as with anybody, there have been times when it’s been me me me in the relationship, especially if I’m irritated or overwhelmed or you know.

12:07.34

Michelle

Ah, yeah.

12:14.70

Dawn

Well, it’s like you know I can get into a mindset that is a little self-serving so it does bring me right back to you know like do your part like this is your responsibility too and also has enabled me to ask for what I need when I need it rather than simply being overburdened right?

12:38.80

Michelle

That’s a really important point that it’s enabled you to ask for what you need can you say a little more about that. How how did that work?

12:47.61

Dawn

Well, you know doing this practice together or even like not doing the practice together I remember like at about week Two I started to feel a bit of Disintegration. You know some of my old family family history patterns came up and mindfulness in relationships. So instead of just looking at my own behaviors like what do I want to create in this relationship and so it it helped me take a look at my role in our relationship patterns and which ones I wanted to actually have be part of our relationship rather than carrying a history with me from you know from previous relationships or from my family of origin and this is like there were patterns now that are designed to protect us and one of them is to so to like lean a little bit further back in my need to be protective or in charge of things.

13:57.45

Michelle

I’m loving Mike’s chuckles here too.

14:01.14

Dawn

And you know I’m sure he’s very grateful for that. But also I was raised to take care of things myself and that like that’s a habit which also means that I don’t ask for help when I need it and this ability now to say to Mike, “Mike I need you to do this so that I feel safe in our relationship that I need I need this from you.”

And for him to not receive that as a criticism is like oh okay, at least I’m not experiencing him being defensive at all I’m here I’m hearing him seeing him living into this commitment to create a pattern of safety for us and I feel like it’s just shifted a lot of energies. A lot of things that we would fight about before we’re just not fighting about and speaking truth and that feels really powerful.

15:07.76

Mike

There’s an interesting thing about the being able to say what you need it takes away the mystery I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what would Dawn really like what would she want and you know I’d get it right sometimes but I’d get it wrong and then feel defensive like I was only trying! So if you if you’re able to say you know Mike I really need or Dawn I really need and it’s helpful. Because what we want to do is in being kind to one another is not to rely on guesswork. Ah, we know each other very well, but that knowledge is not necessarily articulate-able in a moment to moment. What’s needed just now that mindfulness question what’s needed now.

16:17.00

Michelle

Exactly exactly.

16:22.69

Mike

And to have guidance and is free. The other thing that I would say is that one of the things that I have to learn is that you mentioned that I live with chronic illness which is true I have for 18 years and um I am needier than I want to be and I find it difficult to accept help I haven’t asked for because there’s a motivation towards self-reliance to be able to do things for yourself. Even if you can’t do them as well. I need to expend more effort. There’s a desire to do things for yourself and I’ve had to learn and learn every day that part of experiencing the safety of living in kindness is the ability to say, Thank you. Yes, Thank you or to explain why, “No Thank you” is the right response.

17:45.82

Michelle

Do you think there’s something about the safety of living in kindness that um, that actually makes it okay to not be so self-sufficient to accept help? Even if you could do it on your own, to accept a little bit of ease sometimes in having somebody else help is there something about the safety of kindness that that helps with them?

18:12.74

Mike

Big time. It’s huge. It allows the transformative presence of gratitude to exert itself and gratitude is so different than acquiescence.

18:38.95

Dawn

Um, that’s so beautiful. It’s so true I love what Mike had said about you know we know each other so well and we were friends long before we were romantic partners and we’ve been together for over twenty five years, but there’s a real quick quote that I keep reminding myself of.

It’s this idea and it says it starts like this. It says “once the realization happens that even between the closest human beings infinite distances continue”. So, just that part of the phrase is like you know I think I know Mike but I actually don’t know him. We can’t really know each other completely from moment to moment because there’s this impermanence and there’s this shifting and there’s this changing and the quote goes on to say a wonderful. Living side by side can grow if you succeed in loving the distance between you which makes it possible for each to see the other hole against the sky. You know for me this this just reminds me again and again to to give Mike the space to be who he needs to be instead of you know my habitual habit of going in and you know being superwoman and fixing everything.

20:17.56

Michelle

Yeah,especially when he’s not in a mood to be fixed that moment right?

20:28.75

Dawn

Well and it’s not about fixing him. I think most couples really efforts are about trying to be altruistic and fixing the conditions to make things easier on each other.

20:49.62

Michelle

Yes, absolutely.

20:52.89

Dawn

And you know sometimes it’s just not necessary.

20:59.80

Michelle

Well really most of the time It’s really not necessary right.

21:04.55

Mike

If you’re very wise Michelle.

21:05.10

Dawn

Um, well I’m not sure I’ll buy that completely.

21:09.96

Michelle

I mean I think we just really I think we really just want that kind and loving Presence. You know I know for me when I’m going through something challenging, that’s really the thing that provides the safety of kindness is really what I need. I just need that kind loving presence to know that somebody is there that they care about me and I’m not in it alone and that that really carries me when I’m having a struggle or a difficulty.

21:42.20

Dawn

Touche.

21:43.83

Michelle

Of course every now and then I do want the problem solved but usually you know after I’ve had my say, I know, ok, this person’s with me. There’s kindness here I’m safe. Okay now I’ll listen to your advice. Maybe.

22:01.42

Dawn

You know Mike and I have this great phrase that has emerged. It’s like oh we have different mental maps.

22:09.40

Michelle

Yes, I imagine that now when you say that phrase you experience it a little bit differently than maybe before I can imagine that most people when they realize that their partner sees things differently than they do that usually our inclination is Wow Why are you so messed up, you know you don’t see it the right way like I do! But that’s not at all what I’m hearing when you are saying that now you know. Oh Wow We have such different mental maps. There’s no judgment in that. No one upsmanship, No put downs. No um, you know there’s really more a little sense of awe is what I hear when you say that now.

22:52.68

Mike

Then when driving between point A and point B we seldom take the same route it I will almost always opt for the most scenic and Dawn will always opt for the most direct and I simply have to accept saving some time and getting there faster is something that is valuable and she indulges me in taking my favorite route in into town.

23:42.83

Michelle

And how do you decide which is the time to be more efficient to save time and which is the time to smell the roses along the way so to speak?

23:54.87

Dawn

Yeah I think that we get right back to that expressing our needs and asking for what we need. So when there’s there’s time then we’ll take the scenic route and when there’s not I’ll often say. Going to take my map because I have this and this and this that I need to complete and you know it’s easy. It’s like saying what I need.

24:18.36

Michelle

Yeah, saying what you need and also I’m hearing that there’s a flexibility and there’s not like an attachment to the history or this is the right way but there’s a flexibility in it. There’s a mindfulness of being in this moment. So in this moment. What makes sense?

24:37.46

Dawn

You know it’s so true and I really think the turning point was our our work and the Compassion For Couples because I’ll admit that sometimes I would be like what are you talking about? This is not the right way to go and now it’s like do I really need to be so right all the time in this relationship? Of course not, there’s there’s space to enjoy each other’s company right?

25:07.89

Michelle

Well I I love that that you know moving from these fixed positions more into being a team and in the moment and being able to say what you need and honoring each other with kindness. It really does change everything you know. Little minute ago you were talking about the way you’re reading the quote and about space and being able to see each other and I often think when it comes to connection and space because we get so confused about that we tend to either polarize on the side of:

-We need to be connected therefore we need to be basically the same and on the same page all the time and together all the time or 

-We’re really different. So forget it and I’ll take my space and you take your space 

What the image that often comes to me about this is when you start a fire in you know in the fireplace or in our case in the wood burning stove. You know the logs need to be touching but they can’t be too on top of each other there needs to be space right? So the air can circulate and the fire can burn right. If we’re too on top of each other, the fire doesn’t burn and if we’re too far apart and there’s no connection. The fire doesn’t burn there needs to be this this connection and space both need to be present and honored.

26:29.98

Dawn

So accurate and it’s such a lovely metaphor. You know that it’s been fun. It’s like we don’t have to be same-zee’s.

26:44.56

Michelle

Yeah, and really we can’t be sames-zee’s you know, like you said Wow We have such different mental maps. You know we are different people. And that you know, it brings a little more dimension and excitement to the relationship.

27:01.76

Michelle

Are different from each other when each person is allowed to be fully themselves. There’s a little when there’s a little more expansiveness or something in the relationship I don’t know what? what? What do you two feel about that.?

27:14.45

Mike

But one thing I feel is that if Dawn were more like me, she’d be much less attractive.

27:25.57

Michelle

Yeah, yeah, we’re not really attracted the sameness. Ah like we are to difference you know.

27:31.45

Dawn

All joking aside I think it’s honoring like Mike brings so many unique perspectives to our relationship and you know we share a set of values. But the way the values are enacted are often like we said, a different mental map and giving each other space to do things in the way that is just right for each other in the context of the safety of the relationship like it’s a beautiful hole that you know you can’t see me but I’m circling my hands. It’s like with my hands uplifted you know it. It just creates a, I don’t know, I love that you know the poem. We often read about the hammock in my heart. It feels like our relationship can hold that hammock and each of us can can contribute to things in ways like that I can’t do it’s you know, even our teaching together. You know I um I can’t teach the way Mike Teaches and he’s not teaching the same way that I teach and it’s so important that we give each other the space to really speak from our heart and our lived experiences are just different and enriching.

29:04.62

Mike

And if we did teach the same way. Our students would be deprived deprived of one perspective and deprived of two sets of experiences and in in our own relationship and in dealing with people who are struggling to be more self-compassionate over all the courses that we taught. So I think it’s It’s good that we’re different in that regard.

29:41.36

Michelle

It is and I agree that your students would be deprived of one perspective but also you’d be deprived. You know I know I learn from my co-teachers different perspectives as well. It’s Enlightening. It’s Nourishing. You know it gets me to I like it by like having my mind expanded a little bit and my heart expanded a little bit that way you know. So yeah, so you know what I’m hearing from you guys as you’re talking about it is that there were some turning points and some changes that happened for you when you took the Compassion For Couples program even though you each have solid practices you each teach, you each research you know you have these these your your minds and hearts were already oriented toward compassion. There was something that happened for each of you, some turning points in the Compassion For Couples program and that those turning points weren’t just like a turning point, or a one off kind of experience but that really developed into new habits for you.

Am I hearing that right?

30:53.42

Dawn

I can certainly agree with that statement, Michelle. There’s you know there’s a traditional practice that we teach in mindfulness courses of all kinds called STOP. You know Stop, Take a breath, Observe and Proceed to practice or proceed with what’s unfolding. 

But I love the way that you added the word, LOVE so it’s STOP and LOVE and this acronym has really become sort of embedded in my own bones this stop and then the love is like this listen. And let go and listen not just listen with you know my own filters but to actually drop the story in my own mind and really listen to what another person has to say beginning in our relationship with Mike to listen to observe to. Reconnect to my values and then to express you know you asked earlier about what’s it like to express what’s needed in a particular moment from my perspective or from what’s called for this particular practice that I learned in Compassion For Couples has really followed me into a lot of different relationships now relationships with you know some of my academic students, relationships with my colleagues at work, relationships with my academic advisors at school, and even to my children. You know I think I think many of them are grateful to you in particular for this practice because you know Mom’s not offering advice as often as she used to and not doing that mindfulness stuff! Stop mindfulnessing me Mom! I’m really learning that Love actually is about space is about asking, is about expressing it and it’s really about connecting to the values. 

It’s like how do I want to be remembered what really matters to me in this Moment. You know what do I really value in this person and in this relationship and in the larger world as well. You know I’ve been doing a lot of research into Diversity Equity Inclusion and Belonging and a process of decolonization and to meet the anger and frustration in the world with Love has been so Powerful. It’s just really shifted me in a beautiful way.

33:35.34

Michelle

Well I couldn’t agree more that for me that love is the buffer that allows us to hold difficulty without becoming so distressed you know? I want to go back for a moment because something you said Mike has been sitting with me and I just want to go back to that for a moment. I really appreciated when you were talking about accepting help. Even though it’s difficult sometimes to accept help but accepting help from a place I think you said of gratitude rather than acquiescence I just find that to be such a powerful statement and I just wanted to give a little bit more space for you to talk about that if that feels okay to you because I think there’s really something there.

34:21.81

Mike

Well, for me that that’s been transformative in a real sense. When people experience illness or difficulty, they’re the object of helping and sometimes the help is absolute necessary and sometimes it isn’t. But when it isn’t, it doesn’t mean it isn’t useful and it isn’t an act of love. So what I’ve had to learn to discriminate is between help I absolutely needed and help that I didn’t absolutely need but could accept or could reject and in the one case if I rejected it, what would that mean? I think it’s not just a rejection of the help, but it’s a rejection of the love that motivated the help and that’s not good.

35:53.69

Michelle

Oh yeah.

36:09.18

Mike

So I ask myself? What does it mean for me to accept or reject this help which is lovingly offered that’s transformative. I can accept it with gratitude and whoever’s offered the loving assistance feels not only their assistance has been accepted but their love has been accepted.

36:54.76

Michelle

Yeah, so you’re really seeing, you really pause and notice the love underneath the help that’s offered.

37:02.77

Mike

Yeah I can’t say I do it always, but but that’s something that I aspire to do. It goes back to this question of what else is there? You know, being aware of the full dimensionality of experiences.

37:31.13

Michelle

Um, and then if you’re if you’re honoring that if what else is here and the what else is here is this person loves me. That’s why they’re offering their help and you don’t want the help you can accept the love and honor the love. While you’re saying no to the help which is different than just acquiescing and being resentful about it presumably I mean most of us are a little resentful when we acquiesce I don’t know about you Mike.

37:53.21

Mike

It’s true. I was going to say it’s more skillful than I.

38:05.50

Michelle

Yeah, well this is good news for all of our listeners and for me personally because um, you know you’re still human beings. You’re not perfect. I’m not perfect. This is good news. We don’t have to be perfect, but there’s something about having this intention that you’re in touch with. And practicing it as best we can, I think I don’t know about for you, but for me the more I practice something the easier it gets over time I never get to perfection either. But it does get a little bit easier for me.

38:32.32

Mike

That’s true.

38:38.66

Dawn

Oh you’re pretty perfect in my books Michelle. What I mean is you’ve been a great teacher of mine!

38:41.41

Michelle

Oh no, that’s that’s a little scary.

38:53.18

Dawn

Ah, perfection of imperfection is what I love about you. But what I want to contribute to this you know because Chronic illness is something that happens to someone but it also happens to the relationship and I’ve had to learn to to ask Mike if you would like to have assistance which is something I think that’s gotten more. You know when you speak about a practice I think we had these revelations in the Compassion For Couples courses of how are different ways of navigating the world and our different mental maps were sometimes getting in the way of our connection in our relationship and so now as a practice I will ask would it be helpful to you if I <Fill in the blank> rather than than just jumping in and doing you know and that’s taken a lot of unlearning because in my family of origin if if I had to ask somebody if I should help and didn’t help immediately, it would have been acceptable. You know having to ask for help. It was conditioned to help before somebody asked for it and so this this unlearning of that process has actually been an honoring of the of our commitment to the kindness. And safety in our relationship.

40:29.83

Michelle

Yeah, and really being able to to explore what is kind. So maybe we experience the safety of kindness. Okay, well what is kind for you and you know what is kind for me.

40:34.31

Dawn

Exactly.

40:44.73

Michelle

And we do make these assumptions based on our own preferences based on our lived experiences about our partners that oh it would be best for you to not have to ask for what you need just to have it offered but actually when you pause and you say well, What actually is kind for you? And you find out. Oh It’s It’s not that it’s not making the assumption that you need the help but asking the approaching it with curiosity and saying would it be kind I mean what a difference that makes. To be able to really explore that What is kind for you.

41:24.76

Dawn

And and week five that I think it’s week five if I’m remembering correctly the whole curriculum on forgiveness and in particular forgiving ourselves for what we didn’t know before we knew it. This has been such, you know Mike said freedom. It’s like this liberatory this liberative experience of of giving myself the space to forgive what I don’t do well. And to forgive Mike for not knowing what it is I want so many times I don’t even know what I want when I’m stressed out so how could I expect him to know what I need and it’s been so beautiful to actually pause and you know self-compassion and this love practice. It’s like listening to myself too and observing myself and reconnecting to values and then expressing to myself with myself what I need so that I can be a better partner contribute to this relationship.

42:37.30

Michelle

Absolutely yeah, oh it’s so good to talk to you too about this. I really love being able to talk with you guys about this I could probably talk to you about it all day and our listeners might find that a little much, so I just want to say is there anything either of you want to add or want to say before we close our session today?

43:07.86

Mike

I’d like to say something about and another one of our phrases and I as I said in the beginning I found us collaborating on the phrases to have been the most powerful thing. A second phrase is, “May we live in and occasion joy” and one of the objectives of the course I think is to help couples as couples take their place in the world and … We have a set of 5 beautiful lacquered Japanese bowls and every week when the kids come over for brunch on Sundays each one of the 5 bowls is filled with a different candy. And it occasions palpable joy and what I would like to stress is how simple and apparently mundane that is. But it drives from our asking What kind of grandparents we would like to be and we would like to be grandparents who are experienced joyfully and who occasion joy and everyone that comes in lifts all 5 lids and sees what’s in there. It just occasions joy and so the point I’d like to make is that so much of what we do when we are introspective is in some ways wrenching but making a simple dimension of how you would like to live doesn’t have to be wrenching and it can just ah, it can also strengthen relationships. Ah I think that Dawn and I both do this thing with bowls. Ah, contributes to our joy and our gratitude for the grandkids especially in the kids. The kids are as interested in the candy as the grandkids.

46:20.45

Michelle

Absolutely and I love that you know I Love the piece about it’s not always hard. You know sometimes it’s hard but it’s not always hard Sometimes it’s simple and easy and occasions joy as you say and that that joy also ripples out and spreads joy in your relationship but also then to the grandparents and you know and the parents and I love that. We forget we can get so caught in our problems. Not that you two did but a narrow focus can narrow in on that we can forget that to notice the joy that’s around us or to make possible the joy. So I’m so glad you brought that up. Mike.

47:13.10

Mike

Just one last thing in that regard is when I was touched by other couples the most it was when they discovered ways of creating joy for one another.

47:28.33

Michelle

Yeah, yes, that is the beautiful thing to see isn’t it. Yeah yeah, thank you Mike I appreciate that Dawn was there. Anything else that you wanted to add?

47:44.56

Dawn

Ah, you know I so much of our mindfulness training is done. You know it’s a lonely journey and as Mike said it can sometimes be wrenching to you know discover the places that you’re stuck but in this particular course it was the joy of having a companion on the path of really having our relationship be something that could support us in our individual practice moving forward. And one of the things I really loved about the practices the ability for us to practice together. You know we still maintain separate practices but we can come together and practice together and nurture each other and the relationship. So I just found it to be a unique experience in all of my training. You know I have Dharma Brothers and sisters all around the world but to have that bond really nurtured in the Compassion For Couples I recommend it to everybody.

48:56.89

Michelle

Yeah, you know I often say that teaching the Compassion For Couples program is quite a different experience than other mindfulness and compassion programs that I teach because, generally speaking, as the teacher of the Program, you’re the most important person in the room to the students right for that time. But in Compassion For Couples, it’s not that way at all because the students most important person is in the room and it is just a delight to see that and to see that to know that that’s going to continue on that support system continues on. When each session of the course is over, you know you you support each other in continuing this practice which is really beautiful.

49:40.51

Dawn

Well my cheeks are you know, really big and sore from smiling so much from this conversation. So that says something right there just the big smile. The occasioning joy. Thank you for being part of occasioning joy in our relationship!

50:01.00

Michelle

Oh well, thank you for being part of occasioning joy in my life and thank you also Dawn! For our listeners, Dawn is co-teaching the next Compassion For Couples program with me which starts on November 6,2022. ah don

50:17.93

Michelle

Meant to ask you is there a website or anything that I can point people to for you or Mike Either one I don’t think you’re I think you’re gonna be more officially retiring Mike but be corrected.

50:26.93

Dawn

Yeah, we have go ahead.

50:29.25

Mike

Ah, we have the same website as the mindfulness and wellbeing consultancy.

50:35.15

Dawn

Yes, and we’ll post ah information about the compassion for couples there in case people are interested in learning about that. We would really welcome you mindfulness and well-being two zero four dot com. So 204 is the area code for Manitoba Canada, so that’s how you can remember so it’s mindfulnessandwellbeing204.com.

51:03.65

Michelle

Okay, well thank you so much for being with us today Dawn and Michael it has been a pleasure to talk with you. For our listeners if you’d like to know more about the programs that Dawn and Michael offer you can find them on their website mindfulnessandwellbeing204.com and if you’d like to join us for the Compassion For Couples program that starts November 6,2022 you can find out more on our website wisecompassion.com. 

That’s all for today’s well-connected relationships podcast. Thanks for being here if you’d like to get our notes on the highlights of this episode along with a simple practice you can use in your relationships, be sure to join our well-connected relationships community on the wise compassion website I’ve got so much more in store for you. So be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.