• What self-compassion is and why it’s important for you and your relationships. (1:30)
• How practicing self-compassion is a U-turn from how we normally treat ourselves. (1:52
• How our culture doesn’t encourage self-compassion. (2:40)
• Why self-compassion is important to sustain compassion for others. (3:22)
• What research says about the role of self-compassion in relationships. (4:07)
• Why relying on our partner to meet all of our needs doesn’t work — and what to do instead. (4:41)
• How compassion for ourselves and our partner leads to more forgiveness and compromise (5:40)
• Compassion’s two sides – fierce compassion and its softer counterpart – and why we need both (7:00)
• How we “gender” the two sides of compassion and the problems that causes (10:56)
• Why women need to claim their fierce side (11:30)
• How men are harmed by being expected to disown their softer side (12:02)
• Why we really need fierce compassion at this time in history — and how to practice it from a place of love and caring (15:30)
• How to tell when we need compassion’s fierce side or softer side in our relationship (16:28)
• Why anger is important and we need to honor it — and what happens in our relationships when we don’t (18:11)
• How to work with anger and what it is often protecting (19:30)
• The unexpected ease of practicing self-compassion (27:05)

Michelle [00:00:02]

Hi, I’m Michelle Becker. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, an international compassion teacher. And you’re listening to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. Together, we’ll explore how compassion changes the way you relate to yourself and others. And we’ll give you the tools to change your relationships for good. Hi, everyone. I’m Michelle Becker. Welcome to the Well Connected Relationships podcast. This podcast is episode number four, and today we’ll be talking with Dr. Kristin Neff about the two phases of self-compassion in relationships. Dr. Neff is currently an associate Professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She’s a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion over 15 years ago. In addition to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic, she’s the author of the book Self-compassion The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself. Released by William Morrow in conjunction with her colleague, Dr. Chris Germer, she has developed the empirically supported training program called Mindful Self-compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide. It’s an excellent program. So welcome, Kristen, and really happy to have you here today.

Kristen [00:01:20]

Oh, thanks, Michelle Happy to be here.

Michelle [00:01:23]

And I’m just for our listeners that don’t really have a good understanding of self-compassion or haven’t heard of self-compassion before. Would you be able to just give us a brief definition of self-compassion?

Kristen [00:01:35]

Yeah. So really, really quite simply, self-compassion involves giving yourself the same type of compassionate care, understanding and support that you would naturally show to someone else that you cared about a friend or a relative. Unfortunately, most of us are much harsher on ourselves than we are to other people. So self-compassion really just involves doing a U-turn. So you start to treat yourself like someone that you care about, and it makes a huge difference in your ability to cope with the difficulties in life.

Michelle [00:02:10]

I love that idea. Doing a U-turn. Are you suggesting that most of us don’t treat ourselves as well as we treat others?

Kristen [00:02:17]

No. Right. So empirically it is quite clear the vast majority of people treat others more compassionately than they treat themselves. And there’s actually you know, most people think that compassion for others is a good thing, something that is encouraged by our culture. But our culture actually doesn’t encourage self-compassion. People think that it’s going to undermine your motivation or that it’s going to make you weak or make you selfish. All those all those beliefs are completely untrue. In fact, the opposite is true. It makes you more compassionate to others. It makes you stronger. It makes you less selfish, it makes you more motivated. But somehow our culture doesn’t let us know the truth of that. And so there are blocks to self-compassion that don’t really exist for compassion to others.

Michelle [00:03:02]

Absolutely. And so what do you what do you see as the importance of self-compassion, as a foundation for relationships? Not that you need to have self-compassion in order to be compassionate. But really, isn’t it important to sustain, to be able to sustain a compassionate presence?

Kristen [00:03:19]

Yeah. So, I mean, yes. So again, there are many people who are who are truly compassionate to others. They aren’t faking it, even though they treat themselves like crap. Right. So it’s not the case that you have to be self compassionate in order to be compassionate to others. A lot of people do it. The problem is, yes, it is. It is hard to sustain. So, for instance, a lot of people burn out if you’re maybe a teacher or nurse or a therapist or, you know, working with others and you give and you give and you give or your parent.

Michelle [00:03:50]

Exactly.

Kristen [00:03:51]

Given you give and you give and you just beat yourself up and you never support and nurture yourself. You will burn out eventually. So the research shows, well, first of all, self-compassion reduces burnout and allows you to sustain giving, but also really important in terms of relationships. I actually did a big study with a colleague looking at the role of self-compassion in relationships and a few other research studies have been done as well. And when you’re self-compassionate, you make a better relationship partner. You know, people are judged by their partners. It’s not just the self judgment, but their partners judge self-compassion and people as being more giving in their relationships were kind, more supportive, more intimate, less controlling. Right. And if you think about what’s going on psychologically, if you rely on your partner to meet all you need, your need for validation, you need for acceptance, your need for, you know, feeling okay about yourself, your need for excitement, anything you need. If you rely on your partner for that, then anytime your partner doesn’t meet, your expectations is going to be a problem. And so, you know, and also sometimes your partner maybe validates you or supports you, but if you don’t believe it yourself, it’s not really going to help them much. Yeah. So people who can give themselves compassion and support and kindness that they actually can resource themselves and so depended on their partner, which means they actually have more to give to others.

Michelle [00:05:16]

Beautiful more to give to others and probably more resilience in terms of when our partners do ultimately let us down because they’re human and they can always be available to us in the ways that we would like at the moment we would like.

Kristen [00:05:29]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so another thing about self-compassion is it’s not exactly the same as forgiveness, because forgiveness like forgiveness is only in the context of a transgression. Can you forgive yourself if you done or someone else, something wrong has been done. Compassion is more general like you might have self-compassion during a pandemic, which isn’t maybe your fault, right? So it’s not exactly the same. But what we find is that that kind of caring, understanding attitude toward ourselves and others actually leads to more forgiveness, both for ourselves and others. Right. So we’re less judgmental when we see the complexity of things, how, you know, a lot of what we do is not totally within our control. You know, we kind of see the bigger picture and our wisdom and actually allows us to take others perspectives more easily and be more forgiving towards others, which is another reason. Oh, and also this research showing that we’re much people are much more willing to compromise in conflict situations, in relationships, if there’s self-compassion. Right. So it’s not like I’m going to give up all my needs for you, which isn’t good, because you’re going to resent that. But don’t you hate my way or the highway? You know, I’m going to self-compassion self-compassion to people that balance the needs of self and other. They take everyone’s perspective and they try to come up with the fairest solution, which is very healthy for relationships.

Michelle [00:06:50]

Absolutely. I love that. Balancing the needs of self and other. I’m also really interested in your work. I know your understanding of self-compassion continues to deepen and refine, and I’m also really interested in the work you’ve done lately on the two aspects of self-compassion.

Kristen [00:07:10]

Yeah, so there’s kind of a tender, nurturing aspect to self-compassion, but there’s also quite a fierce, active, powerful side of self-compassion. And so sometimes I refer to this as the yin and yang of self-compassion. I’m borrowing the yin and yang concept from Chinese philosophy, even though I’m definitely not an expert in Chinese philosophy. But it’s a metaphor most people are familiar with, but not too familiar, which makes it useful. So basically the idea is there are two ways of being in life, and we always see both energies, one without the other. You know, we know that the Yin and Yang single symbol is is duality is a thought of white and the black and a black and the white, they always go together. And so Yin is kind of a more soft yielding way of being. It’s about accepting things as they are being at peace with how things are. And we’re showing we really need we need to be at peace with our world. Right. Which we we can’t if we fight and, you know, against our rail, against reality all the time, that’s not helpful. And also, we need to accept ourselves at some point. We need to realize it’s okay to be imperfect. You know, we are who we are. So so the yin energy of self-compassion is kind of the healing energy and self-compassion. We use it to kind of heal ourselves, to accept ourselves, to soothe ourselves. It’s kind of like the energy of the mother has for a child. Even at that child is like screaming at the top of its lungs. The mother can still, you know, hold that child and soothe and comfort it and let the child know that, you know, she loves it unconditionally and she’s there for the child and all those things. That’s really the yin aspect of self-compassion. 

But there’s also a Yang side of life. So yang is more that kind of more powerful, forceful, action oriented way of being. And compassion also requires. Yang I mean, imagine that there is a building on fire. I mean, I know you’re in California and there are all these horrible fires going on. And imagine if, like firefighters come to a building and sees people trapped inside and they say, oh, I’m so sorry, I’m here for you. You know, I feel for you. I accept you unconditionally. You know, that’s not exactly compassionate if you’re absurd. That’s right. So so sometimes compassion, which is another way of thinking about compassion, is concerned with the alleviation of suffering might desire for well-being. Well, sometimes to alleviate suffering, we got to do something. You know, we need to change something. We need to make a move and we need to protect and for others and also ourselves. So we need to protect ourselves. We need to say no. We need to rescue ourselves from dangerous situations. We also need to provide for ourselves. Right. So it’s not just about accepting who we are. Sometimes we need to actually take actions to meet our needs, you know, follow our dreams, do things that matter to us. And then also motivating change, right? So again, it’s a dualism at the same time that we’re okay as we are. It’s okay to be imperfect. We aren’t unacceptable because we’re imperfect. At the same time, if we care about ourselves, we’re going to want to make changes. Make us happier and healthier. Right? We aren’t going to want to just do behaviors that are going to harm us. Like maybe we don’t eat right or we drink too much or, you know, we engage in things that aren’t good for us. Well, it’s not self-compassion. It just to say, Oh, well, you know, it is what it is. Right. Right. We need to take action to change things. And so that’s the Yang side of self-compassion. 

And I just have to say, Michelle just let me get this word in a big bee I have in my bonnet book. I’m writing my book about this. I call it my new book is going to be is called Fierce Self-compassion. It will come out next year, but it’s written specifically for women because not that men don’t have issues as well, but basically what’s happened is yin and yang is that these are universal need. These are two energies that every living being needs both to be well and happy. And what’s happened is we’ve gendered these things. You know, women are supposed to be yin and soft and nurturing. She’s not allowed to get angry. She’s not allowed to be fierce. You know, they don’t feel like competent, strong women. And so they’re just socialized just to be these nice yielding doormats, which, you know, you can see how well that’s worked out for us. You know, and women especially, we need to claim our fierce side if we’re going to change not only gender hierarchy, which is still there, there’s still a very big glass ceiling. There’s still real discrepancy between how men and women are treated. But I really think it’s going to be women who are going to tackle things like global warming and racial inequality and all these big problems facing our society. I think the call is especially for women to declaim our fear side. And at the same time now I can’t write this book. I’m hoping Chris Germer will. So some man will come up, man. But, you know, men are socialized against being Yin and that really harms them, you know, especially in relationships. Right. So men aren’t allowed to be tender or soft or caring because they’re told that that makes them weak. And the reason they think it makes a weak is because it’s a female thing and women have power. So it feels disempowering to men to get in touch with their inside when in fact, that it actually and what it does is it disempowers them because they aren’t in touch with their inside because they’re only operating, you know, using half of their resources. And so I really, really think and, you know, and in some ways, people who are transgender or, you know, non-binary, they’re less constrained by these gender roles. And there’s a lot of freedom in that because it’s not a matter of being male or female. It’s just about being human. Just one more point on this and then I’ll let you talk. I really fired up a role.

Michelle [00:12:57]

Keep going.

Kristen [00:12:58]

Well, because, you know, I like I like the metaphor because the metaphor of of yin self-compassion as the mother. And that fits with gender roles. But the metaphor for Yang self-compassion, I call it Fierce Momma Bear, and that’s actually a female metaphor. But like, there is nothing more fearsome than a mother whose child is threatened. You know this story. You know, women like lifting cars to get their children out from underneath. So and it’s not that it’s just a female energy. Both males and females have this fierce energy of this fierce warrior within the you know, we often think it’s a male thing. But actually, if you if you frame it in the context of parenting, you can really easily see how it’s also definitely a female thing. And in some ways, self-compassion is not only being a good friend to yourself. Self-compassion is also really being a good parent to yourself, you know, asking yourself, What do I need? Meeting your needs, being there for yourself in a way that you know your parents may not have been. And so sometimes we need to be a fierce mama bear parent to ourselves. Sometimes we need to be a tender, nurturing, soothing parent to ourselves. And really, the whole question is, well, what do I need in the moment? Or, you know, thinking about relationships, what energy is needed in the moment. 

And so, you know, this is one of the the Buddhist goddesses of compassion is named Avila Keech Savara. And she’s she’s she’s depicted with many, many arms. And each arm is holding a different instrument, like a different tool. The idea is, you know, to alleviate our suffering. There are many, many different instruments we can call upon. And so the same thing with self-compassion, the way it manifests, what’s needed. It can be something versus saying, you know, yes to myself or no to you because of my boundaries or, Oh, that’s okay. Or, you know, you can do it. There’s there’s lots of different expressions of self-compassion and we need to give ourselves full access to all of them if we’re going to be healthy and well.

Michelle [00:14:56]

Absolutely. And I, I really love your tone as you’re talking about this because you’ve got the fierceness in your voice, you know? Well, you’re really in touch with that Yang side, which I love knowing Michelle.

Kristen [00:15:07]

I’m more Yang than in, you know, the fun gender roles are so funny because and Chris Chris Germer because we’re yin and yang, but we both have. You know, obviously that, you know, these gender roles just they just pigeonhole us in a way that. So first of all, it doesn’t fit with unique individual personalities, but they’re also just so limiting. Yeah. So I’m really excited about it because, you know, at this time in the world’s history, yes, we need Yin but we really need Yang we really need powerful change. And the yang the yang especially when they’re integrated. So I like to say that when yin and yang are integrated, it creates a type of caring force. You know, it’s force is power, but it’s caring for us is because it’s aimed at the alleviation of suffering. And this is precisely what’s needed with all the social justice movements and the environmental movement. I mean, we need to make change, but we need to do it from a place of love, not from a place of power over others. And, you know, I’ve I’ve got occasional moments where I’m hopeful we’re doing that. And then I have other depressed moments where I’m not so sure. But, you know, I I’ll bet you five bucks and that’s what we need. And if I’m wrong, tomorrow I’ll be dead. So I won’t be there to collect my five bucks. But, you know.

Michelle [00:16:25]

Well, yeah. And so how do we know in a particular relationship, whether it’s a parenting relationship, you know, your parenting, your child, or whether it’s a workplace relationship or whether it’s your your partner, you know, your your romantic relationship. How do you know whether in that relationship you need a little more yin, a little more softness, understanding, caring, or a little more yang, a little more boundary motivation, that kind of thing?

Kristen [00:16:54]

Yeah, well, I mean, it’s really a matter of wisdom. No one from the outside can tell you there’s no formula like in this situation. You need this, and in that situation you need that. But generally kind of as a loose guideline. So when you feel you need healing and self-acceptance, if like shame is rising or you’re really judging yourself or you’re really feeling hurt or really feeling sad, if your emotions kind of if they if you ask yourself, what do I need right now? And, you know, you even try it out, you know, try a voice that’s a little more tender and accepting and kind of, you know, almost maternal or soft. And how does that feel? And by the way, sometimes we need both. It’s not like it’s always either or. But, you know, again, if your thing is, you know, I really haven’t exercised at all during this pandemic. I’m not saying this is true, but if it were true and this is true, you know, there may be an element of, well, that’s okay, it’s hard. But really, if I just if I just it’s okay. It’s okay that I’m never going to exercise and I’m actually not doing my body any good. Right. So sometimes what I might need to do is, hey, you can do it, you know? Come on. It’s going to feel good. It’s good for you. Let’s do it. Go for it. Yeah. A little motivating energy. Sometimes when. When we’re angry, for instance, the anger is an interesting one because anger often is a signal to us that we’re being threatened in some way and that we need to protect ourselves and we need to honor that. I mean, women have been so damaged by being told that we aren’t supposed to be angry because what happens is, you know, either so so in a different personality, someone would just shove it down and they don’t get angry. And then it just leads to things like depression because they turn inward or they just beat themselves up or they feel helpless or powerless. And other women, what happens is they’re told they shouldn’t be angry, so they try not to be angry. So they bottle up it inside and then they explode. Yes. Or, you know, when they do express angry, it feels like, oh, that’s not me. I was taken over by these alien rage monsters and it wasn’t really me. So it’s like feels authentic.

Michelle [00:19:03]

It also comes out in critical ways. Yes. You know, this sort of like even tone calm but not binding and harsh.

Kristen [00:19:11]

That’s right. And because we don’t we aren’t honoring our anger. I really I really feel we need to honor our anger because the force of anger, the essence of it, is self-protection. The reason we feel anger is because there’s some threat. You know, you feel angry at someone threatening your child. You feel angry if you feel threatened. But the problem is because we don’t see it clearly, because we have this negative relationship to it, it starts to go kind of pear shaped, you know, and we distorted. But if we use our mindfulness, first of all, to fully accept our anger, this is anger. And we understand that it’s here to help us, then that gives us the freedom to say, first of all, you know, we need to harness the energy of our angry and we anger, I mean, to validate. I mean, there’s a lot to be angry about. 

The joint George Floyd protests were full of anger, right? You know, again, it would’ve been inappropriate if people weren’t angry or the movement is angry. It should be angry. And sometimes in relationships, we were mistreated. We should be angry. And it’s actually a problem if we aren’t angry. So. Own the anger honoring it, you know, validating it. But then what we want to do is we don’t want to get taken over by it. Right. Because then that can lead us to, you know, causing harm as opposed to just preventing harm. And so that’s why we need both the yin and the yang. And so part of this is when you’re angry, first of all, also including that that more loving energy, both for yourself and others, aiming the anger not at the person causing the harm because they’re there fighting human being, doing the best they can, but just at the harm itself is simply aimed at protection from harm. It just it’s not aimed at like tearing other people down. That’s actually not protecting you. That’s actually just feeding the fire of the conflict. Right. And providing some Yin energy that the balance with the Yang energy to focus on the harm that the person causing harm. And then another way it plays into this is that usually what’s being protected by the anger are hurt feelings, especially in relationships. You can be really pissed off at your partner and maybe have good reason to be pissed off. And yet there’s also usually feelings of hurt underneath. Or maybe feelings of shame or feelings of sadness or feelings of fear. Right. And so in terms of ourselves, we need to own our anger and love to it. So it is a caring for us and then also use that energy to heal the wounds underneath them. And we can’t wait around for our partner to do that. Hopefully they can, but maybe they can’t. Maybe they’re there putting out their own fires and maybe they can’t be there for us to to give us that what we really want to hear so badly. I’m so sorry. I wish I didn’t do that. You know I love you. Are you okay? Sometimes they aren’t around to do that. Sometimes they never do that. You know how you leave a relationship? You’re never going to hear that. But you can learn it to yourself, right? So you can provide that loving acceptance, that feeling of I’m so sorry this happened. Now I care about you. What can I do to help? You can give that to yourself. And so, really, you know, it’s just it sounds complex, but it’s really not it’s really not so complex. What we’re actually more used to doing it for in terms of with our children, you know, Yes, raising children is complex, but it doesn’t seem weird that it’s complex, but we’re used to the fact that we need different things for our children at different times. And the same thing with ourselves. We just have to be we have to be willing to pause and ask, well, what do I need right now? And then try a few things out and then you’ll kind of, you know, maybe take the wrong road that I didn’t need that that was the wrong one. Okay, let me try something else. A little trial and error never hurts.

Michelle [00:22:48]

Absolutely. And you know, you’re talking about going from anger to validating the hurt underneath the anger. And I’m just really aware that before we go there, we have to create some safety for ourselves. And I think that’s the yang energy that helps us find, you know, create the safety. Do you want to speak a little bit to that?

Kristen [00:23:07]

Yeah. So well, so it’s really all about safety, actually. In many ways, both yin and yang is about safety. The the alleviation of suffering means safety. Right? Right. When we aren’t safe, we’re suffering. And so the alleviation of suffering when we’re unsafe means we need to get ourselves safe. And both are ways to help us feel safe. But yes, so drawing boundaries is is really important. You know, just being willing to say no. And, you know, and part of and this is again, this is how the interplay, part of the the willingness to say, no, you have to be willing for people not to like you because you say no. yeah, You know me, Michelle, I have no problem saying, you know, I have a lot of yang and it’s probably because I don’t care a lot whether or not people like me, which sometimes gets me into trouble. I mean, sometimes I should care a little bit more, you know, because but, you know, there’s there’s pluses and minuses to these things. But basically, if you’re if your sense of self-worth comes from other people liking you, you often don’t protect yourself because you don’t want you know, you think that they’re you’re safe. Do you think that them liking you is how you’re safe and therefore, you know, you give in or you don’t protect yourself and okay, I’ll do that even though I don’t really want to do that. But if you really value yourself and you know, you say, you know, I’m sorry. No, I’m sorry if you don’t like me, but it’s not the end of the world. If you don’t like me, freedom to say, well, what what do I really need? You know, again, you don’t want what you kind of you want me to cut off from you in because we do need other people. So it’s all about balance. But yeah.

Michelle [00:24:40]

Well, it’s both. It’s what do I really need? And then also, what do you really mean exactly? Like also in parenting, for example.

Kristen [00:24:47]

Yes.

Michelle [00:24:48]

Yes. You know, how do we have that strong back or that that Yang energy that says, I’m going to say no to you and I’m going to tolerate the fact that you may say to me that you hate me and I’m going to do that because it’s it’s what you really need and what I really need. Yeah. Oh, well, Kristen, this is this is such great stuff. I’m so glad. I know you’re starting to teach some workshops on this. And I’m so glad that you’re writing the book. On this. It’s you know, it’s really a a life changer to know that we need to listen to our anger. We need to set our boundaries right. And also the other side of.

Kristen [00:25:26]

Go ahead. And I think what’s really important, I think kind of my mission is to realize that this is the face of love. I mean, anger gets a bad rap. Yes. And sometimes, especially among like meditators and stuff, it’s all about being equanimous And, you know, yes, anger arises and I just see it flow, you know, like a bird flying through the sky. I don’t I don’t get on it. But, you know, it’s kind of the subtle devaluing of anger, you know? Yeah. I actually have a picture of the Hindu god, of Kali in my bedroom who’s like, really embodies that fierce energy because she need that energy. A protection is a face of love, and we need to honor it now. We don’t want to get lost in that. We don’t want to, you know, get destructive. All those things, all those caveats. Yes, yes, yes. If people immediately bring up the caveats. Yes, yes, yes. And this is a face of love. And once you it’s like it’s like what Chris does about shame. Shame is a form of love as well as shame as the desire to be loved. And when you see these things as faces of love, then we aren’t have a difficult relationship with it. We can work with it much more easily.

Michelle [00:26:32]

Absolutely super important and the energy behind it. I’m thinking of hearing I think it was Chris actually talk about what happens when you have yang with no yin and what happens when you have yin with no yang. You know what happens when you have anger with without also the awareness of care for other people. Yes. So.

Kristen [00:26:53]

Exactly. Yeah.

Michelle [00:26:55]

Lovely to talk with you about all of this. I always come away energized and delighted and engaged. So so thank you for joining us today for the for this podcast. Anything else you’d like to say about the topic before we close?

Kristen [00:27:12]

Well, maybe just to say, I mean, you know, you’re probably talking about this, but oftentimes people think this is something that that’s really hard to do. And it can be, you know, a lifetime of habit of beating yourself up or not being compassionate or not protecting yourself. You know, it can be challenging to get started. But really what excites me about self-compassion is that it’s not rocket science. It’s not you don’t have to meditate for 20 minutes a day to learn how to be self compassionate. The research shows that, yeah, this shift in mindset and what it is is just tapping into a skillset you already have. You know how to stand up for your friends. I’m sure you know, I’m sure you’ve had situations where you’ve had to stand up for your friends. You certainly know how to care for and comfort your friends. You know, you’ve done this with your children, you’ve done this with your friends, You maybe done this with your partner. And then it’s like we have all these tools in our back pocket. It’s just a tragedy that we don’t know. We can take them out and use them for ourselves. But then once you figure that out, it’s like, Wow, I had this superpower that I didn’t even know I had. That it’s not it’s not as difficult as you might think, which is just the beauty of it.

Michelle [00:28:26]

And it doesn’t depend on somebody else giving it to us, which is also really important.

Kristen [00:28:31]

Yes. Yes.

Michelle [00:28:32]

Well, super helpful. Kristen, thank you so much. I want to just name a couple of other resources for people. You’ve coauthored the Mindful Self-compassion Workbook with Dr. Chris Germer which is available through Guilford or wherever you like to buy your books and as well as the the Teaching, the Mindful Self-compassion Program, a guide for professionals that can also be helpful. So and you’ve got so many resources about for self-compassion, including self-compassion, test research, articles, practices and your teaching schedules. People want to learn more on your own website at self self hyphen compassion dot org.

Kristen [00:29:11]

Yes. Try to make it one stop shopping for people.

Michelle [00:29:14]

It is. It is one. It really is one of the most the best websites I’ve ever seen. It’s so incredibly useful, so resource dense. And also there’s the Mindful self-compassion dot org website.

Kristen [00:29:28]

Yes. And Center for MSC dot org.

Michelle [00:29:31]

Thank you. I’ve been on that website so many times, but thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, okay, so thank you so much, Kristin. So grateful to you for being with us today. And that’s all for today’s Well Connected Relationships podcast. Thanks for being here. Got so much more in store for you. And our next episode, I’ll be interviewing Dr. Susan Pollack about self-compassion for parents in these challenging times. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.