• Why many of us are harboring resentment toward others right now and why forgiveness feels so out of reach. (1:24)
• What forgiveness is and why it’s especially important now. (1:48)
• Thinking of forgiveness as clearing the cache on your heart’s hard drive. (2:15)
• Misconceptions about forgiveness that can make people want to avoid it. (3:35)
• The benefit that WE get from being the one to forgive. (4:38)
• What one super-forgiver’s story can teach us. (6:20) 
• How normal it is to forgive in a moment but then find ourselves back in a state of unforgiveness – and what to do. (7:51) 
• Is forgiveness just a spiritual bypass to make sure we don’t have to feel the messy feelings around unforgiveness? (9:12)Touching the pain that’s deeper than the anger as an important step in the forgiveness process. (9:45)
• How anger can actually serve us in the forgiveness process — and when it doesn’t. (10:40)
• A simple process to help us deliberately move from anger into forgiveness when forgiveness isn’t coming naturally. (14:45)
• The fierceness of true forgiveness and how it relates to fierce compassion. (20:03)
• Self-forgiveness and recognizing our own limitations as the doorway to common humanity. (25:30)
• The critical difference between self-indulgence and self-forgiveness (28:57) 
• How to move through shame on the way to self-forgiveness (30:14) 
• Why forgiveness is even more critical than trust when it comes to having a happy relationship (34:02)

Michelle [00:00:01]

OK Hi everyone I’m Michelle Becker and you’re listening to the well-connected relationships podcast. This is episode number seven. And today we’ll be talking with Margaret Cullen about the importance of forgiveness in relationships. Margaret’s a longtime MINDFULNESS TEACHER certified in mind. Mindfulness might. Margaret’s a longtime Sorry let me try that again. 

Margaret is a longtime MINDFULNESS TEACHER certified in mindfulness based stress reduction by the UMass Center for Mindfulness. Actually she’s in the first ten who were certified and she’s one of the founding faculty in the compassion cultivation training program developed at Stanford where she was one of my teachers. She’s the co developer of the mindfulness based emotional balance program and co-author of the book the mindfulness based emotional balance workbook an eight week program for improved emotion regulation and resilience. She also offers a two day workshop on forgiveness. Welcome Margaret. It’s a pleasure to talk with you today.

Margaret [00:01:04]

Thank you so much for having me Michel.

Michelle [00:01:09]

So forgiveness more than ever seems sorely needed in these times. There’s so much divisiveness and conflict and they’re really just running high right now whether it’s differences over the state of the U.S. politics and policies, differences over how to best handle the pandemic or, the irritations that can develop when we spend so much time together in isolation. Many of us find we’re harboring some resentment toward others right now and frankly we may not feel particularly interested in forgiveness right now. Can you say a little bit about what forgiveness is and why it’s important or what role it plays?

Margaret [00:01:50]

Yeah I think especially now when the stakes are higher the stresses are higher that divisiveness as you said feels to many of us like it’s at an all time high. That forgiveness is critical because forgiveness in a sense is like clearing the cache on the hard drive or rebooting your computer rebooting your heart. So you can start again without that resentment and grudges builds. I’m mixing metaphors here but it builds like plaque. And eventually it becomes impossible to maintain goodwill and openhearted relationships.

Michelle [00:02:46]

I love that. MARGARET I especially the clearing the cache you know it gives us maybe a fresh start and we don’t have to hold on to the build up plaque build up of resentment huh.

Margaret [00:02:58]

Exactly yes.

Michelle [00:03:02]

Great. So we can be a little confused about forgiveness I think. What what is forgiveness and what isn’t forgiveness?

Margaret [00:03:15]

Yeah. It’s surprisingly simple. What it is like a lot of things simple but not easy. I think of forgiveness as letting go of grudges and resentments so that the heart is fully available to love. Basically to connect. There are a lot of things that it isn’t. And this is where I think people get confused where there are misconceptions and obstacles that arise. It isn’t avoiding conflict. It isn’t self abnegation and it isn’t deflection. It isn’t whitewashing. And you know one way to notice you know one way that forgiveness is studied is through unforgiveness. So one way we understand what forgiveness is is by noticing what it isn’t. So that I think most people are familiar with what that feels like to wake up at night. And have a story going through your head to rehearse sort of plan saying things to people when you’re angry. That’s unforgiveness.

Michelle [00:04:41]

Yeah. And stressful.

Margaret [00:04:45]

It’s very stressful. Yeah yeah. And that’s why I think a lot of the research looks at unforgiveness because you know there are physical costs that can be measured to bearing grudges.

Michelle [00:05:00]

Yeah. So what as I hear you talk about it. I’m getting the sense that forgiveness is maybe more for the person doing the forgiving than it is for the person being forgiven. What would you say about that.

Margaret [00:05:15]

Yeah. I would say absolutely it is. Often times we can’t even directly offer an apology to others. Forgiveness is so much for our own benefit and for our own hearts. And when I teach forgiveness as you know Michel I use a lot of quotes from people who inspire me and show me what’s possible around forgiveness. Because I often come come up against the limits of what I’m capable of. So I look to others who are super forgive ers to help me kind of come up against and maybe edge my limits out a little bit. And one of those people is Linda Biehl and her story is a little bit dated now but it’s still incredibly powerful. Her daughter was murdered in South Africa. She was a young American woman who was volunteering and working to fight apartheid there and through the Truth and Reconciliation process in South Africa. Linda ended up partnering with the two men who murdered her daughter. 

And there’s a quote that relates to your question about who forgiveness benefits from Linda. It’s very short and I’ll share it if that’s OK.

Michelle [00:06:52]

Please do.

Margaret [00:06:54]

And she wrote I do think forgiveness can be a fairly selfish thing. You do it for your own benefit because you don’t want to harbor this pain. You work it through. It’s about making change.

Michelle [00:07:10]

Beautiful. Beautiful. That’s quite a powerful story Margaret. You know that that they came that her mother came to partner with the person who killed her.

Margaret [00:07:23]

Yeah to me that’s kind of like as a parent. That in a way is the highest bar that I can imagine is not only forgiving the person who murdered your child. And it wasn’t an accidental death. You know this was a death that was part of a conflict, part of a revolution in South Africa. And. What’s the word I’m looking for here. A violation as extreme as the murder of your own child. I could imagine having moments of forgiveness. But to actually get to the point where you can work with that person, where you have forgiven to the extent that the person who murdered your child becomes an ally, is really quite extraordinary.

Michelle [00:08:31]

It is indeed it’s very extraordinary and so extraordinary that I think probably many of us feel like while that’s out of my reach you know.

Margaret [00:08:42]

Yeah I mean I think in a way this points to another important misunderstanding that comes up around forgiveness and that is that it’s a process and it’s important to recognize that you can forgive in a moment and then go back to unforgiveness. And certainly when there’s a violation that’s really extreme like this where you’ve really been hurt and traumatized, it’s too much to expect to go from that right into forgiveness. There needs to be a process I’m sure Linda Biehl went through quite a long process before she arrived, I would imagine, at a place where she could work with these men who killed her daughter.

Michelle [00:09:41]

Were you gonna say more.

Margaret [00:09:42]

I was just going to say that you know it’s a process that’s in some ways similar to grief where you go through you know anger and bargaining and there may be some depression and there may be moments of forgiveness and then anger again and then moments of forgiveness and then anger again. It’s not like you suddenly cross a line and you arrive and that’s the end. And it may be that Linda Biehl had, you know many moments and maybe even still to this day, of unforgiveness that arise.

Michelle [00:10:24]

Yeah I think that’s a really important point because I think that some of us feel like forgiveness is kind of or. Our idea of forgiveness is kind of like a spiritual bypass I’ll forgive and then I’ll avoid all that icky messy feelings stuff you know. I think what you’re actually saying is that part of almost a really important part of the process of forgiveness is actually opening to our own feelings about what has happened to the grief the sadness the anger whatever it might be there.

Margaret [00:10:58]

It’s a paradox really. I’ve noticed this for myself often in the process of forgiveness that in order to arrive at forgiveness, I need to touch the pain that’s usually deeper than the anger. I often experience deep hurt and deep sorrow and residing somewhere below the anger story. And that often when I keep the story of anger going, it’s who at that is actually the bypass. It’s not forgiveness that the anger is the bypass around the hurt. And in order to get to forgiveness I need in some way to sit with, face, recognize and acknowledge the hurt.

Michelle [00:11:53]

So why do you think we go to anger. Does it serve any function any positive function for us?

Margaret [00:12:00]

Yeah I mean I. Anger is tricky. It definitely serves a function. You know the theorists like Paul Ekman who see emotions as having evolutionary functions. See the purpose of anger as removing obstacles that get in our way. So that’s one way of thinking about how anger serves. Your dear colleague, Steve Hickman just wrote a wonderful piece in Mindful about another function of anger that I think is really really helpful, which is a signaling of our values and what’s important to us. And I like this framing of anger because it gives us a way to embrace anger rather than be afraid of it, and use anger to point us to what really matters. The tricky part of anger is that it’s really energizing and anything that brings energy into the system has a kind of addictive potential. You know we. I noticed this the other day I was really mad about something and I went for a walk. And I walked about five miles I didn’t even realize how far I walked. I had so much energy that came from the anger. It’s like a drug! Yeah it’s really like a drug. So sometimes anger can be perpetuated very subtly and I would say even unconsciously just because of the energy that it brings.

Michelle [00:13:55]

Yeah I love what you’re talking about here that you know how we can get addicted to kind of that energized State right where we might feel a little more powerful or have the energy to set limits but, that getting stuck in the story of anger actually keeps us from doing that deeper work underneath from seeing the wounds, healing the wounds, doing what we need to do to tend tend to ourselves, to continue to process the emotions that have come up rather than just stay in that highly energized state.

Margaret [00:14:33]

Yeah. Yeah I think there are a lot of dangers there. In in the workbook that I wrote with Gonzalo, we talk about anger as a costly energy that burns hot. You know keeps us in that, activated kind of fight or flight mode. So it’s hard on the system like any drug, like any stimulant. It’s hard on the system. So it does get in the way of dropping into the hurt and the sadness. It also another interesting thing that, Paul Ekman talks about that applies really directly to anger is the refractory period. That this idea that when we’re in the grips of anger we tend to only see that which reinforces our anger. We don’t see solutions. That’s why it’s easy to get a stay stuck in the anger story. And that’s very relevant to forgiveness right? Yeah. 

It’s very relevant because forgiveness in a sense doesn’t allow us to stay stuck. In that narrative.

Michelle [00:15:49]

I love that that it doesn’t allow us to stay stuck in that narrative. And as you were talking about before that forgiveness can actually clear the cache. It can you know, make some space again for us to open our hearts in a way that feels better.

Margaret [00:16:07]

Yes.

Michelle [00:16:08]

Yeah. So how do we. What would you say about how can we do that. So something happens. We feel injured or wounded and we’re angry about it. How do we move from there into the process of forgiveness? What can you give us some help about that?

Margaret [00:16:27]

Yeah. Well it turns out that forgiveness like compassion and loving kindness, is both something that occurs naturally. And sometimes it comes like Grace. And it’s also something trainable that we can practice. And by inclining the mind in that direction, by choosing to forgive by setting an intention to forgive. The possibility. What I want to say. So rewind a little bit by setting the intention to forgive. We actually create an opportunity for something to happen. And that can be done through formal practice of forgiveness. It can be done through self reflection. It can be done through challenging misperceptions. It can be done through asking ourselves, you know is this really benefiting me now? And what would be the cost to me of forgiveness? What would I lose? What would I give up? What would I gain? Why am I holding on to the grudge, how is that serving me? 

You know I I worked with Fred Luskin for a while and I did a number of workshops with him. And as you probably know he’s written books on forgiveness and he did some really really seminal research at Stanford on forgiveness. And he’s he can be funny and a little bit snarky and Fred would say something like well so, “how is that strategy working for you”? You know if you’re if you’ve chosen to hold a grudge like. Well how’s that working for you. How’s that going. So sometimes forgiveness can be just asking ourselves those questions. How. How is this going for me to carry this grudge?

Michelle [00:18:52]

You know it reminds me of my work with with kids when they were like middle school high school, was as a therapist it was not uncommon that somebody would come in having a problem with turning in their homework in a particular class for for example and I would gently inquire about what was going on there and they’d say Oh it’s my teacher my teacher so horrible. And I do not want to give her the satisfaction of turning in any of my homework or you know like I’m not going to participate and make her happy. And I would say well how is that working for you. Because you know your teacher goes home and they have dinner with their family and you know they get their paycheck and life goes on. But what. What’s the cost to you, of saying that.

Margaret [00:19:42]

Absolutely. That’s it. And it’s funny because to talk about it in a way it seems so obvious. But I’ve noticed when I teach forgiveness that we often have an intellectual understanding, where we’ll say, you have course I know that’s true but emotionally we don’t. So the intellectual understanding doesn’t go kind of below the chin in some way. Like yeah yeah yeah I know I’m the one who suffers but I’ll show her.

Michelle [00:20:19]

Yes. Yes. Were you gonna say more you keep it you keep going if you want. MARGARET.

Margaret [00:20:26]

Yeah. No no that’s that’s. We’ll stop there. Okay.

Michelle [00:20:31]

So how does forgiveness you know another thing I’m curious about which you know which kind of comes up as we’re talking about this is how does forgiveness relate to being a doormat? In other words letting people continue to harm you. And how does it relate to fierce compassion?

Margaret [00:20:52]

Yeah yeah I think those are those are really really important questions. So hang on one second I just totally forgot when I was going to say Ok Okay let’s start again. 

OK. So another forgiveness icon that I look to a lot to inspire me and to answer some of these really hard. I’m sorry. Hold on. OK. I didn’t put my phone. Apparently no blame.

Michelle [00:21:34]

I apologize I’m doing that now OK.

Margaret [00:21:46]

Go for it. You ready. OK. So how does forgiveness relate to being a doormat and how does it relate to fierce compassion? And these are really important questions and I think they’re even more important now that we are at a time around the world where issues around social justice are top of mind for many of us. And it’s not OK to turn away. It’s not okay to lie down and be run over where many of us feel really compelled to stand up for what we believe in, to stand up as allies, to stand up for other people. So again I need to look to people in the world who’ve demonstrated a way to do this, to answer that question and the people who come to mind for me especially are Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama are two people who’ve chosen forgiveness as a path. And there’s nothing weak or submissive. I don’t see either of them as a doormat. I see them as profoundly committed to justice. 

And I see them both as fierce exemplars of exemplars of fierce compassion I should say. And I have a quote here from Desmond Tutu who wrote, “choosing to forgive does not erase the reality of an injury, nor does it ask us to pretend that what happened did not happen. It’s quite the opposite. Real forgiveness and real healing require us to be honest about what’s happened. So there’s a lot of fierceness in that. There’s tremendous fierceness in naming hurt. And true forgiveness requires us to face it and to name it. It takes courage which I think is kind of an integral part of fierce compassion wouldn’t you say? That’s kind of the courageous part that is able to name it and call it out. And not just turn away and say harm was here. Harm was done and I’m going to do everything in my power to make sure that that harm isn’t repeated. And forgiveness is a way is probably the most powerful way to not perpetuate the harm. 

And I see this. I mean you started out our conversation by talking about the divisiveness in the United States right now which feels I think to many of us like an intractable problem. It it feels like an impossible dilemma. And how are we ever going to overcome this? And it has to start by naming harm we have to start by naming harm and then we need to forgive. And if we don’t forgive we are doomed to perpetuate and exaggerate and increase divisiveness. We’re doomed to pass it on generationally ancestorally, really epi — genetically. You know all the ways that grudges and divisiveness grow and fester. You know forgiveness is really it’s it. It’s what will save us.

Michelle [00:26:19]

Yeah. And it seems to me that there’s there’s gotta be something between opening to the harm and forgiving. And I I wonder because that’s a that’s a big that’s a big leap. You know I wonder if there is a role that common humanity plays in here like understanding our our shared human condition. And that is how we typically other people you know all the bad qualities are in you in all the good qualities are in me you know and perhaps yeah.

Margaret [00:26:50]

Oh no question about that. And interestingly uh this is another kind of bit of a paradox is that, self forgiveness is in many ways the doorway to common humanity which is a lot of what you just said when you said that all the badness in you is in you and all the goodness is in me. And there are a couple of ways to challenge that obvious misperception. 

One way is to begin to try to see the goodness in you. And that’s a perfectly fine way. Another way is to begin to recognize that we too have limited beliefs. That we too live in bubbles, that we too have needs for the world, for our families for the future. That we too like Steve our friend wrote in this article have issues that we care about so much, they make us angry and that we too occasionally get blinded by that anger and fail to see the bigger picture and fail to see the humanity in other people. 

So self forgiveness plays a huge role in being able to recognize our shared common humanity. And my guess is and you can cut this out when you edit this this conversation if you want to that a lot of your listeners like you and me live in a liberal bubble and I live in Berkeley which is kind of an ultimate bubble and within this liberal bubble that I live in, there is an incredulity around how many people who share the same country as the United States could have voted for the other guy in this recent election. How is that even possible? Who are these people? I don’t understand the country that I live in! And. Within this bubble that I inhabit, I notice in myself and in a lot of my friends, a kind of moral superiority and intellectual superiority a kind of monopoly on the moral high ground. That has some hubris and some blindness and that if each of us were to forgive ourselves a little bit, forgive ourselves for our own shortcomings which of course means facing them. First of all right?

Michelle [00:30:05]

Oh there is that little rub.

Margaret [00:30:06]

There is that rub. Oh it’s possible that my perspective might be also limited. You know that it might be limited by all sorts of constraints but it’s not just recognizing that it’s limited. It’s also forgiving ourselves for being imperfect and limited. That really opens the door for others to be also.

Michelle [00:30:38]

Yeah yeah if we can see it in ourselves and understand the conditions that make that happen right. Exactly. Then we can we can begin to to identify that in other people that behavior that we don’t like is also conditioned behavior that there are some causes and conditions underneath that we probably know nothing about. You know there’s some suffering under there. And I like to say that for all of us, myself included, anytime our suffering in any moment when our suffering exceeds our resources, bad or unskilled full behavior is often the result.

Margaret [00:31:19]

Absolutely.

Michelle [00:31:20]

And it doesn’t mean I’m a bad person it just means I’m you know I wasn’t skillful enough to handle it in that moment in a way that was good or that was kind or or whatever it might be. And if that’s true for me that’s true for everybody else too.

Margaret [00:31:36]

Yes. And I would add I agree completely. And I would add. That there’s some important extra emotional piece that happens when we fully face our own shortcomings with warmth that humbles and softens the heart. That that’s very different from an intellectual position about our limitations. That has to do with really seeing our own frailty our own blindness. And in some sense I think there’s no substitute for what happens on a heart level there. Yeah and how that how profoundly that can impact the way we see others.

Michelle [00:32:40]

Yeah. I love what you’re saying here and this is you know we call ourselves wise compassion. That’s the name of our ah ah ah organization. And it’s because we need both. Right. We need wisdom. Otherwise the compassion is soft and fluffy and kind of silly. So it has to be informed by wisdom. But wisdom by itself also needs the warmth of compassion. Like to read and when you have both of them like in True compassion always includes wisdom true wisdom always includes includes compassion. Right. Yes. Like the two wings of the bird story you know that that it takes both to fly right. We have to have both. So I love what you’re saying about forgiveness that it can’t just be this sort of intellectual wise wisdom of I know I’m supposed to forgive here that’s the best thing to do but it actually has to have the warmth of the heart.

Margaret [00:33:41]

Yeah it does. And I think there’s this piece about self forgiveness that is surprisingly powerful in softening our judgement of others.

Michelle [00:34:00]

Yeah. I wonder though if that’s easily confused with like letting ourselves off the hook or some kind of self-indulgence kind of thing.

Margaret [00:34:11]

Yeah I mean I think it can be and it’s really important to distinguish them and they feel you know completely different. Right. So at least for me self-indulgence is or you don’t have to exercise today. And. Yeah you had a hard day. I think chocolate you need chocolate. Now that’s a really good idea. So that feels entirely different than. Facing the fact that I behaved unskillfully. Feeling the shame of it, feeling my judgment about it turning towards it letting myself feel it acknowledge it and saying I forgive you you’re human. Yeah those two things feel totally different to me.

Michelle [00:35:12]

I agree with you. I think they are totally different. One is really the service of avoidance and the other embraces and turns toward you. Yeah yeah yeah. That’s really helpful thank you.

Margaret [00:35:25]

And I think one of the things that’s hardest about self forgiveness at least for me is shame, that often it involves in order, to arrive at self forgiveness. I have to move through shame. And for me shame is one of the most uncomfortable feelings huh. Yeah there is. It’s so yucky it’s so uncomfortable. I hate it. I don’t want to feel it and I do a lot to avoid feeling it.

Michelle [00:36:05]

Yeah absolutely. So what. How do you work with that.

Margaret [00:36:11]

Well I. That’s where I really draw on my mindfulness practice and the things that I’ve learned in so many silent retreats where I’ve sat with every conceivable mind state and emotion that it’s possible to have. And I think the spirit of it really often ends up. Being kind of boiling down to, ok let me die of this right now. Let me sit here and die of shame. You know when the feelings are really uncomfortable that’s kind of the mantra that I use OK. Shame you know sometimes it’ll be oh yeah shame I know you I’ve been here many times before. Come on. Give me what you got. Lay it on me. I know I can. I can take it you know so it’ll depend a little bit on my mood and the resources that I have but sometimes it’s OK I’m willing to die of shame right now on the spot.

Michelle [00:37:24]

Yeah. That that makes sense. And um we have to be willing to open to the truth of things you know. So Margaret I see that we we’re just about out of time and I know Steve has got a hard stop to I have a little ending that I want to say but. But I didn’t ask you the question about trust and forgiveness. Do you want me to ask you that real quick before we go?

Margaret [00:37:51]

If we have time. Let’s do that.

Michelle [00:37:53]

Sure. So Margaret what would you say what how does trust and forgiveness you know what’s important in a relationship and how does forgiveness relate to trust?

Margaret [00:38:04]

I’m so glad you asked me that Michelle because there’s a story that I love to share in this regard. A number of years ago I presented at a big conference in San Francisco on happiness and there were two or three thousand people there. And oddly I ended up on a panel that was about happiness and relationships which I think relates a lot to your work. And Thupten Jimpa was the moderator of that panel and at the end of the panel there were five of us. We were all therapists. We were asked questions that we all had to answer. And one of the questions was how important is trust in a relationship? And of course we were talking really about that you know about marriage and that kind of relationship. And I was the last person to share and all the therapists said what you would expect. Trust is critical without trust you can’t have a relationship and relationships are built on trust. And as they were speaking I was thinking am I going to say what I really think right now in front of all these people or just say kind of the company line for therapists? Oh, yes trust is… and I thought as you would guess Michel knowing me, that I have to say what I really think. 

And I said you know I think trust is really overrated. And it’s actually destructive. It’s kind of like the fairy tale that you will live happily ever after. That you can expect to commit to a relationship for the rest of your life, or for decades and never have trust broken, never be disappointed? How crazy is that? That’s not in line with reality. That what’s much more important than trust is forgiveness. That relationships depend on forgiveness. Yeah. And in the last minute can I read a quote about that.

Michelle [00:40:22]

Sure. OK.

Margaret [00:40:24]

So from Gregory David Roberts: “it isn’t cruel to your shame that characterizes the human race. It’s forgiveness that makes us what we are. Without forgiveness, our species would have annihilated itself in endless retributions. Without forgiveness there would be no history, no art, without that dream, there would be no love. For every act of love is in some way a promise to forgive. We live on because we can love and we love because we can forgive.”

Michelle [00:41:03]

Wow beautiful. Thank you so much. Margaret thank you for being with us today. It’s been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Margaret [00:41:12]

Likewise Michelle always a pleasure to talk with you.

Michelle [00:41:16]

Exactly. Always a pleasure to talk with you too. And for our listeners if you’d like to know more about Margaret’s work you can visit her Web site which is Margaret Cullen dot com and Meiji M.A. RGA R T C U L L E N dot com. And if you’re interested in her forgiveness workshop which is coming up soon, December 11th and 18th you can find that under Eventbrite. So, if you search under cultivating forgiveness, her workshop will come up and you can register it and join her if you like. And of course there’s also her mindfulness based emotional balance workbook which you can find by searching that name. And her last name Cullen and so been just a pleasure to be with you. 

So that’s all for today’s well-connected relationships podcast. Thanks for being here. I’ve got so much more in store for you so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.